TOPIC: [TTT] Yikes! Punishment Appeal

After the conclusion of my last post, I tried contacting Richard, mainly because of one point : The fact that CeeZee said a different story to which I stated in the 1st post. This is the screenshot from that chat.


So from that chat and the conclusion of my last post, I realised a few main points from the other side of the argument. I will go over them and then provide counter arguments for my case.



1. The main report for me was RDM - Joining a gunfight to which I got warned for.
2. Looking at the decision message from Richard, I can see a couple of things:

• 2.1
  After discussing the events that took place with CeeZee on TeamSpeak, we have come to the conclusion to deny this Appeal.
  I'm unaware of the current case but are they both supposed to be able to decide what the case may be? With the claimant being also the judge and the executioner of the case?
• 2.2
  Apart from not providing any evidence to back up your claims i was also told a different story by the staff member that punished you in which you, without doubt, joined a gunfight.
• So I'm under the assumption that this community is now "Guilty until proven innocent" unlike it's always been before? You expect me and every single person in the server to be recording at all times?
• 2.3
  Apart from not providing any evidence to back up your claims i was also told a different story by the staff member that punished you in which you, without doubt, joined a gunfight.
  This was a blatant lie, as you can see from the group chat screenshots above, I asked CeeZee what was the "different story" that he told Richard, which was the exact same story I told in the appeal.
• 2.4
  Apart from not providing any evidence to back up your claims i was also told a different story by the staff member that punished you in which you, without doubt, joined a gunfight.
• A phrase like "without doubt" is a strong one when you haven't seen a situation. I don't want to go into full detail right now, but this basically goes with point number 1. that was made against me. Below I will show my counterarguments as to why I shouldn't be warned, or rather, have my warn removed.
• 2.5
  Also to make things a bit more clear regarding this, staff members are indeed allowed to handle reports of their own.
• Also to make things a bit more clear regarding this, my point is staff members shouldn't handle their own cases because of the incredible bias around it, and should only do it when no other staff are active on the server.
  
  Yes it's allowed. It is still bad though.

3. The fact that neither CeeZee nor Dr. Richard took into consideration that they were both KOSed at the time of the shooting.

I didn't have to wait 5 seconds that I did for KOS'es to be called in order to join a shooting, I could've done it then and there no hesitations. But I waited, so that I'd have a reason to shoot, which was KOS. An RDM is an abbreviation for Random Death-Match.

It wasn't random. I waited for an appropriate KOS to be called, which is why I shot CeeZee because he was KOSed (abbreviation for Kill-On-Sight). He was in my sight, with a kill on sight.

Again, he was in my sight while he had a kill on sight status on his name.

And I got warned for that. That's crazy to me. This goes without needing to say it, but I then after identifying that CeeZee was innocent, I was running to gun down the person that killed him and called a KOS on him. (and was also KOSed by CeeZee) but was killed shortly after by another innocent.That's the 2nd time he was involved in a case decision revolving him in the same incident. Next time think for yourself, Richard.This community, as it should, is running on the basis of "Innocent until proven guilty". I provided all of the information I needed, and to add, I also said that I was willing to add any other information if necessary and will co-operate as much as possible in order to have this matter resolved. Dr. Richard didn't put any effort into that despite me giving enough information needed in my case. Do you expect me and everyone else to be recording at absolutely all times just in case this happens? I used to do that when adminning this server a while ago, and it did come in handy, but there is no need for me to do that as a player.That was a lie from Richard. I don't like the fact an admin handling my case accused me of lying in a report and did that by lying himself. Proof I wasn't lying is in the above screenshots with CeeZee and Richard.Again, I didn't. But the big thing is, I could've. I chose not to I had plenty of time to unload my clip in both parties just when I heard gunshots like an ape brain and call it a day. But I didn't, I chose to spectate the situation and wait for someone to be KOSed and then shoot. I wouldn't have waited 5 seconds that I did before I started shooting. I'd be perfectly fine with the warning if I was to do that.Not really an argument against me, but I still want to say something about this. This shouldn't be acceptable when other staff are online. If there are none, perfectly fine. If there are - don't do it. You should be capable enough to understand that humans are as bias as one can be and this is no exception. As an admin, I rarely ever handled my own cases, and when it did it was only when no other staff were online at the time. Whenever I did that, I also recorded for evidence in case I mess up. Staff should have some sense of responsibility. Consider adjusting this.Again, not an argument against me but criticism for the involved admins. Read next time I felt like the decision was made before even opening the report made, especially with the lack of understanding from Richard on this case. They were completely tunnel visioned to the idea of me joining the gunfight and were ignorant to new information presented to them.



Please, for the admin handling this case and many others interested in it, read it fully to have a full idea of the situation and only then make your decision. I'm competent to accept the punishment that's appropriate to the actions commited by me, however now I'm punished for something I didn't do.

Last things I want to add:

Again - I'm happy to provide any further information if necessary and will co-operate as much as possible to have this issue resolved appropriately. Thank you.

Also, this goes without saying, I would like this post not to be handled by Dr. Richard, and more importantly, CeeZee. If possible I'd like someone who is primarily a TTT member of staff.

PS: CeeZee mentioned in the group chat that this matters only if I was to apply for staff. This isn't a good way of thinking. Staff, as I mentioned before, should have some sort of responsibility when making mistakes, and it shouldn't be left at "Whatever, doesn't matter".

EDIT : To make it more simple - CeeZee had a KOS on him while I shot him. Out of sheer spite he warned me for it.

But you got any proof of you not joining a gunfight tho?

It's your word against his and by default, the admin's side is taken.

.uzi wrote:
Funny. This is exactly what my post is about. Staff not reading.

Yikes Svanz Comet wrote: I read your last appeal so I know what this is already about and you haven't provided any evidence on both cases.

Appeal handling policy dictates that evidence is required to prove that you did infact not break a rule. How do you expect staff to make any informed decision that would involve removing/adjusting a punishment without any evidence being supplied? If it's word vs. word when handling an appeal, and unless it's blatantly obvious the punishment was unnecessary or abusive in any regard, there's no reason to adjust it.

In this case, Richard has appropriately contacted CeeZee, the admin who served the punishment and got his side of the story after consulting your appeal and the associated narrative. Stories don't match, details are missing blah blah blah.. point is, you can't prove CeeZee is lying here since you have no proof so why should we take your word?

Also I ain't staff on TTT anymore :^)

.uzi wrote:
You're wrong. As mentioned in my post that you clearly didn't read, this community runs on the idea of innocent until proven guilty. The one needing to provide proof, in this case, would be CeeZee as he's the claimant in this. Not me. I'd need to provide proof if I was making a ban appeal however. You as a global moderator should know about this, I'm making a punishment appeal of which isn't required to show proof, despite the fact that I did show proof for me not RDMing. Ban template has a proof section. Punishment appeal template doesn't. I'm actually shocked you, a global moderator, don't know this.

Also what do you mean I don't have proof? If you said that admins word is taken already, a very bias thing but nonetheless, then at least stick to it and actually listen to what CeeZee said himself. He got KOSed. I killed him on a KOS. 2+2. I didn't RDM.

Stories don't match, he says. Please, don't comment on posts you can't be fucked to read, for the 3rd time. I never said CeeZee was lying in any case, I said Richard was. Your comments are more than irrelevant.

Handling..

Right, so this will be handled as soon as we get time to speak about this whole thing.

I'll speak to the appropriate people once I get time.

An outcome will most likely be posted tonight or either tomorrow.

Yikes Svanz Comet wrote:
I was about to write something long and constructive but after reading this and the Appeal I've realized how lost you are. I would suggest that you go trough the TTT Server rules and staff guides/policies.

Kurzex wrote:
Thank you, I expect you to be straight to the point.

Again, as mentioned in my post, and hopefully as a competent staff member, please read it thorougly.
Dr. Richard wrote:
That's the problem. You don't need to write anything long and constructive. There's nothing in this case that would need a comment to be "long and constructive". I've read rules time and time and time and time again when I was admin and know them fully and quote them constantly to players in the server who aren't aware of them.

As both me and CeeZee said, he was KOSed. Kill-on-sight. he was in my sight. I killed him on sight while he had a kill-on-sight on him. whilst he was in my sight. I killed him. while he had a kill-on-sight status. and was in my sight. at the time of me killing him. he was in my sight. with a status of kill-on-sight.

And I still got warned for it, and then denied on my appeal. According to this, any KOS called should not be issued by anyone and everyone in the server should do nothing.

Also, can this be locked at the moment so that no further drama continues?

Kurzex wrote: I would disagree, I want as many people contributing to this as possible with all sorts of opinions as I want this to be closer to an open discussion

Keyword discussion, I agree with the fact that drama should be kept to a minimum. But not discussion.

Yikes Svanz Comet wrote:
Implying that the template restricts what you can and cannot put into an appeal... there's an extra information field that you can put your evidence in. Don't worry, you won't get punished for putting it in there

Yikes Svanz Comet wrote: I mean you don't have proof. You've not submitted any screenshots/videos that detail what actually happened. You've simply provided a narrative of what happened, which takes me onto my next point...

Yikes Svanz Comet wrote:
That's been the default outcome since I joined back in 2016, it's never changed? The assumption is that the staff member knows what they're doing however, if it's obviously wrong and is pointed out by the handling admin it can be addressed.

Yes, CeeZee was KOSed, but so was the bloke he was shooting at. You killed CeeZee, who was KOSed, who was attempting to kill another KOSed player as he was killed. Since both parties were KOSed, it almost nullifies the whole point of him being KOSed since he was attempting to kill another KOSed player - that's my understanding anyway.

Yikes Svanz Comet wrote:
Rude

Kurzex wrote: Not necessary at the moment but I can do in the future if need be.

That's what's confusing to me. I'm not saying CeeZee is wrong. What proof do you want me to add? What is required is already in the post.
Again, I don't need proof. It's good to have. just not needed. But let's say I didn't provide a narrative. Go with what CeeZee said. In his own narrative, I'm still innocent.

Yikes Svanz Comet wrote: Clearly not in this case.

Both of them Were KOSed. That doesn't nullify anything, it makes them both KOSed, which they were, which I said many times in my posts. And nowhere in the rules does it say it "nullifies it". The meta is calling a KOS on the person you're shooting, be you traitor or innocent. It gives you an advantage in either case.


It's not. Read the post before commenting, simple as that. I don't mean to be rude. You just argue against me without knowing the situation. Blindly attacking. And because you don't even know the situation and (by definition, not out of spite) are completely ignorant and will willingly continue to be ignorant, your comments are entirely (again, by definition not out of spite) are irrelevant.

This man wrote a whole essay. just cause of that lol

Tamaninja wrote:
Thank you!

Yikes Svanz Comet wrote:
I'm gonna glaze over the rest of your reply and instead focus on this..

I do understand where you're coming from and honestly it's easy to understand where all the confusion is coming from.

Personally this is the critical part for me (taken from your first appeal):
CeeZee claims that he KOSed this fella first, which is *probably* why CeeZee was KOSed in return. I say probably cause nobody has any damn proof lol. But from the limited visibility of what actually happened by reading your appeal (including the screenshot of the Steam group chat) it seems like (feel free to correct the summary):

1. CeeZee tried killing TheDooDaa and placed a KOS on him in tandem
2. Gunfight takes places
3. TheDooDaa retaliated and placed a KOS on CeeZee - reason uncertain
4. TheDooDaa supposedly leaves the gunfight - duration unknown
5. You killed CeeZee with the intention of finding TheDooDaa afterwards

From my previous experience as a former Head Admin on TTT, these kind of situations caused the most problems which is why I personally despise the 'joining gunfights' rule. I can't really say much more but it definitely looks like CeeZee and TheDooDaa were engaging in combat in some way, it's not easy to tell what you mean by 'leaving' the gun fight.. did TheDooDaa manage to completely run away or was it just an attempt before you intervened?

Also ty for the minus karma, I must've rustled your jimmies

1.I don't think so, I think the other person started it, but I'm going off of sound memory.
2.I think KOSes were fired from both sides, hard to say but I'm 70% sure that CeeZee was first to call the KOS.
3.I believe The other person shot 1st, CeeZee called KOS and shot back, then the other person KOSed CeeZee mid fight.
4. Yes
5. Yes.

Yes, these situations are bad, which as I said, I think caused the new meta of calling the KOS mid fight. It gives a slight advantage, But nowhere does it say that it negates the KOS that was placed secondly from a little while ago, there was a big incident (ironically, with me included) where a traitor called a KOS on an innocent (person A), another innocent (person killed the person A but was then killed by another person entirely, person C.

Person C was warned for RDM despite killing someone who killed an innocent. Who at the time, followed a KOS.

This caused havoc in the server at the time, and because that rule was completely out of control and presented obvious flaws, me and another admin at the time, The Lonely Dodo decided to show just how flawed it was. A T sat in the T room and called a KOS on every person on the server that was innocent, making everyone KOSing everyone viable without any precautions.

After a meeting with both me and Lonely Dodo, the initial situation I believe was overturned.

Long story short, yes, this is a gray area in terms of decision making. I can see the argument from CeeZee, sadly he can't see mine. In short, I more than strongly believe I shouldn't be warned, maybe at least a chat opened saying "Try not to do that again" or something along those lines.

But there was nothing.
He immediately took his own report and then warned me, then was in assistance of deciding my appeal. It's almost obvious he did it out of saltyness for me killing him. Which should never happen. A staff member, especially with his ranking, should always remain objective and put staffing above playing at all times.

EDIT : Also for the minus karma, sorry i hurt your feelings in 6 hours I'll bring it right back up for you and give you a lollypop with a bandaid <33

CeeZee wrote:
That would be the case if there weren't KOS statuses placed on both of you.