TOPIC: [Demotion request] Angelus

Well if now i have to disagree with ya darth
I still dont get the staff team..
Video 1 is clearly a video that is worth perma ban..
Demotion would be the noclipping into admin but the massive rdm is worth a perm ban... Other players get perma banned also... I still dont know why we still defending angelus.. He ruined rp for loads of players.. And the other videos is showing on some points that he got leak of knowledge of the rules and or ignoring it..

This is still my opinion..

I still think and will always support my own words..

'Everybody should be threated the same way'
Also angelus
Also me
And everybody else that clicked the buton to follow the rules

Section wrote: Alright, so basically we should all go abuse our powers on the server because we are having a bad time? Let me explain something that you and many others can't seem to understand, lets take as an example. So lets say I'm the nicest guy you can ever meet and I'm super friendly but I also rdm and ruin people's rp and i basically abuse every power that was given to me. In your mind, do you think kindness and friendliness will make up for those?
I'm sorry to break it down to you, but I doubt there is a reason for what Angelus did other than trying to have fun by ruining people's rp and mining around. Please, if you want to give your opinion stop talking from the friend position and treat him as if he was someone you never met; although this shouldn't be done usually because you might have a different experience with someone but I think the videos should be enough to ruin that experience.

Also mystic, lets let the lead team decide, it's not up to us but I request at least a demotion to user. Though you are right about being treated the same way this is why I said up, that you need to treat him equally and forget that he's your friend for a second.

We are not banning him, you need to forget that completely. Staff and users are delt with in separate ways.

Video 1
Completely legitimate abuse.

Video 2
He may have had a sword, but he was just having a little fun. The guys would have been livid if they were really that bothered, he uses flash nades, and quite clearly doesn't hurt anyone (or at least the evidence doesn't show it).

As for the 'big weapon' - again, it was never used, and he was just having a bit of a fun/social interaction with the users.

However, nothing is mentioned about melee weapons. It classifies guns as a 'handgun at the most' size-wise, but the rules don't state size for melee weapons.

As for the bit where it fades to him M202ing you, I think I heard something about this. I'll have to double check it, so take this with a pinch of salt, but there was something recent where Darth killed Angelus or something, and this was potentially his revenge. If that happened, but wasn't mentioned, I must say that this source from Darthvader would have been heavily biased.

I'll strikethrough that text if I find out that I'm just going senile.

Video 3
We've used jeeps/airboats/pods for fun before by the consenting other parties. Angelus was, again, having harmless fun in this situation, and he was with people that he knew and didn't mind.

As for the knife, he knifed moody who again, he clearly interacted with and I'm sure he didn't mind at all. Forgive me if I'm wrong on that one though.

This one wasn't disruptive at all.

Video 4
Everyone affected in this one, again, like angelus, and allowed him to do so. They were the only people affected, aside from Moody who again, I'm sure didn't mind as I know he is good friends with Angelus.

As for server lag? No, I didn't see any of that.

Finally, overlooking their nocollided wall does deserve a slap on the wrist, but it's nothing major.

Johnny's Proof
Again, clearly having fun with people he likes. Everyone in there would have complained themselves without the interference of these recordings if they were really that concerned.

Chester
You saying that is fine, however without evidence it bears no weight at all.

Glungie
If you were banned by him 'like a year ago', I can surely back him up. That would have been round-about the time he was just promoted to admin, and he did a damn fine job during that period. Again, just because you say he breaks rules (which I'm sure would be your last priority to remember for a whole year until something was brought up), doesn't mean he actually did break rules.

GamersFunHouse
I must say, here I would have stepped in and intervened if I knew he was doing something majorly disruptive. I knew he was playing around with airboats, but the majority of the lead team had done this themselves or for other people at some point (especially back on rp_townsend_v2) - he was clearly not causing an issue.

The idea of this response is not to 'take a bullet'; more to state that Angelus knew that this had happened before by many other lead-staff, another reason why I didn't intervene.

DarthVader
If that is 'just yesterday', then where's the proof from before that period if you're trying to state that this is an ongoing issue? Why didn't you report it at the time? It obviously can't have been that 'we were collecting evidence' because the report is up here now for sure.

Struts/Mysticz
I'm aware that Angelus has had both good and bad experiences with different members of your gang. The report that Progenic sent me was dealt with with a warning to be careful about how he reacts to what players say. Now PLEASE don't go and say 'well he's had his chance, and should have responded to these warnings.' because this was all happening around the same timeframe.

Blazer
Oh, what a convenience. That's also another post that carries zero weight. Nil.

Blocked
Bold clearly states that the people involved weren't concerned with what he did, as they would have made a comment pertaining to and supporting the motion that Angelus is abusive.

Italic clearly shows the damage that randomly spectating has. It lacks insight, as demonstrated here. It was Angelus explaining something to Blocked as requested - which was completely harmless and fine.

Johnny
Perhaps this is how they wanted it demonstrated. The way you say '2 people' makes it seem as if they were random people, unaffiliated with Angelus. If that was the real case, they would be here supporting the motion. But as you see from here (quote from Blocked I will repeat below this section), there was no issue with it, so please don't try to conspire on matters or exacerbate them by twisting words, as that's all you've done here.

Nameful
And you would know, given that you were banned at the time of this post, right? Am I right?

You just display unjust attitude towards the development and staff of the community, well, back up everything you've said about suggestions not being answered and about how everyone is abusing, and then we'll see how it's 'all just talk'.

Blocked
Just to clarify, they were having consensual fun in this circumstance, and that only affected those consenting. Therefor, videos 3, 4, Johnny's and Gamer's aren't valid for the most part.

Darth
Thanks for that guess, now, find me where that's quoted from?

hmshark
Not once did he support them in an RP situation or provide them with any entities that they could have taken. I'm not sure how killing a few of them with their consent benefits them in any way.

Hawky
Exactly. I'm not sure if it's purely by chance that DarthVader is the only victim that has a serious complaint (whereas everyone else who submitted evidence wasn't directly affected, and had an uninsightful spectators-view of the events) or whether he is honestly the only one that Angelus thought he could get away with 'having fun' with.

Hmshark
Lovely little comment there, definitely extends your argument tenfold.

Blocked
Must say, I agree 99% with what Blocked says here and it is definitely a notified post. I will amplify it here so it isn't lost in the wind of this full-force shitstorm.

Mysticz
Nowhere does it govern what staff can do in the rules. We rely on common sense, and punish from there based on democracy (the majority result of whether what they did was wrong or not).

That then sets the benchmark for future staff, having seen what happens to other staff for certain offenses.

My opinion
Angelus does take it too far sometimes. We won't back away from that fact. However, I've never seen Angelus receive a punishment, or warning for what he's done. I'm not going to deny that there's an issue in the way we discipline staff, because there sure as hell is from my point of view.

However, for the majority of staff, the community team condone a 'final warning' for the individual which is the ultimate method of correction, and I feel that it is only appropriate and fair that Angelus receives this just like most others.

Overall, this situation has been blown out of proportion. Within this thread, I complain of lack of insight, and that's exactly what it is. As I said earlier, when the other party involved waived that angelus was abusing them, that makes the vast majority of evidence presented here invalid - they were the only ones affected for the most part by what was done, and I'll quote myself on which evidence's content mainly becomes irrelevant.

These videos may just not have been thought through or evaluated with those involved before posted, because if not, it does just like they've padded out this report to look so much bigger than it was and ultimately try to defame Angelus further through removing the context of a couple of the experiences presented.

I don't condone what Angelus did, even to those small groups, as it represents his overall attitude. Coincidentally, I also feel that as a gaming community it is right to have fun at times; it is occasionally the right attitude to have in moderation. That's where Angelus begins to forget himself and get carried away, and all this needs is correction (a chance that everyone else is given) for a valuable staff member of whom is very much in the heart of ZARP.

But overall, through either care being somewhat taken, or through pure chance, Angelus only really has one main complaint here and that lies with DarthVader. Video 1 does carry some magnitude which I feel should be dealt with, but I think that the only reason we're jumping to ideas of full demotion here is because of the way the report looks big and scary, and has subconsciously changed your perception of it through this little strategy. The way some of them have been presented is just a red herring: look at the validity of all of them, and it rapidly decreases.

I bid for Angelus to receive a final warning: it is only fair as other staff members have also received this in the past through willpower to give a fair trial. I'm sure that after that, Angelus will either be allowed to stay on the staff team after all his dedication and have a great chance of abusing, or not learn and have an immediate reason to instantly remove him.

Thank you.

EDIT: Must add this on, pretty logical

If you guys are saying that Angelus is abusing the powers for his own benefit/amusement - there's plenty of staff we could have demoted that don't do F1s but use their powers just to assist their own RP when it doesn't go their way. It works both ways, and Angelus could feel that this isn't fair on him in such contexts.

This is what I was afraid off. I'm pretty sure this is unfair and I know that that's just your opinion, but I would like to attempt and change your mind. You think that my video is not enough well here is another one.


I don't mean any offense to you chris in this message or to any of the Lead Team Members but I think that a final warning is just not enough. This video was given to me by my cousin as you can see from the name of the video. I was surprised, even though I expected something like that from Angelus. I hope this will change your mind and everyone's too!

JohnnySmith wrote:
I think video 1 is worse than that. Put this into perspective, perhaps Angelus was doing F1s - he tabs out as a citizen on the street for a moment whilst in got mode, and gradually people start randomly shooting him. What can he do about that?

That video has no context. It could have even been him setting his HP to 10k for an event of some sort, but he doesn't abuse in the video. It's not harmful whatsover. If those guys wanted to mindlessly shoot him until a car ran them all down, so be it, but if he wants to be in godmode whilst not RPing then that's his own choice.

Can other lead team members reply on the subject? I would like to see the other's opinion, Chuteuk?Kpro?LazyBro( you replied but you didn't say your opinion)? Dcx? Tigzter?
I just want to know where this is heading to, because if nothing but a final warning will be done about this, then I don't think it was worth any of the trouble. Angelus, hasn't received any warnings before because he is liked by the community and no one wanted to harm him, sadly this is a lot similar. Like I've said already in my previous posts, I don't mean any Disrespect, I know the lead team will make the right decision in the end. All I want is to know if all this trouble was for nothing.
Chris, I respect your opinion that's why I won't reply to what you think of the video I just posted, Although, I'm pretty disappointed at the moment, knowing that your opinion can change the whole Lead Team's decision. I was expecting a demotion but I'm starting to realize that this might not happen because of how loved he is by the community. Now normally, when I report someone to Dcx, I ask him to just speak with them about what they did and ask them not to do it again, but this time I wan't the exact opposite. I have nothing against angelus, he seems like a nice person but his actions are unbearable. The only reason I even wanted to start this was because nothing was done, I hope this time something will be.

That's my opinion about all of this, I hope its accepted and like I said before I don't mean to offend anyone and I'm doing this only for the sake of the community that I love.


Edit: I guess no one checked the image is placed of him spawning a matador and killing me.. So i'll just post it here again.


For those who can't see this because it's too small, here.
I would like to remind everyone that I was at spawn then, so I'm not sure how many recieved damage from his matador attack on me but If i remember correctly, there were about 3 people next to me, but there isn't proof of that. Though, I don't think getting attacked by matador without even saying anything is fine :/
- Johnny Smith

To respond to Chris' message, you didn't mention the noclip, is he allowed to noclip around his map for his own satisfaction or to escape from cops?? Of course not...

There is the part where he PROPPUSHES Moody's car (which I was in) and then prop kills both of us. I don't think that I was happy about that Chris, and if you noticed moody WAS driving away from Angelus but he followed us using NOCLIP up until the point where he dropped that pod thingy with an extra weight on his car and PROPKILLED killed both of us)...

As for the part where he m202ed me, I saw Angelus no clipping as a citizen, so I decided to see what he was going to do because I felt that he was going to do something... He noclipped to the villa district, started to randomly throw (flashbangs?) on random users there then spawned a sword. I stopped recording since, went there, equipped a handgun, told the users :"Admin Control is here!" Then I shot Angelus... I was walking back to spawn when Angelus suddenly TPed I front of me so I shot him again. Then I started recording again. Then he TPed to me again, noclipped, and M202ed me as a citizen. I said nothing, I was ok with that since we were joking around at first (After he noclipped and threw flashbangs), then he slayed me twice and accused me of having God Mode on...

Anyways, I wasn't "collecting evidence", the video which shows him no clipping away from cops as a priest and spawning weapons wasn't taken 2 days ago when us 3 decided to report him, and I thought that I'll just give him a chance before reporting him because it might have been a one time thing and I never saw him do anything like that before ( as in breaking rules and abusing WHILE RPing)...

Thank you Chris for your well written reply, but hopefully you will also take what I just said into consideration, since your opinion really affects the whole Lead team's decision, and forgetting to mention some parts will result in the change of the final decision on what has to be done with Angelus.

JohnnySmith wrote:
To be fair, you did say you'd just logged into the server. It was probably not such a big deal in which cases, but he still obviously needs to receive a slap on the wrist for it.

Darth
No need to be so impertinent just because I missed something.

Most admins I see noclip around the map. The majority of times he noclipped around the map, he didn't interfere with anyone.

Just because you happened to be in Moody's car, doesn't mean he can't have fun with moody. Did you have his explicit permission to be in his car? If not, then it's your own damn fault that you broke the rule of random passenger. I also don't believe the evidence shows that you both died from it, feel free to correct me with a timestamp if you think I'm wrong.

Well, he was a radio manager. The vast majority of the time, people turn off their ingame sounds to roleplay as this, and as we didn't hear ingame sounds from Moody's mic - it can only be assumed. That's why Angelus may not have felt that he got through to Moody. He obviously didn't know you were in the car, if you even were.

I've already responded to this. They clearly didn't mind, read my original post properly rather than skimming it to make it look like I missed things out purposefully.

You on the other hand did purposefully miss this out, obviously to defame Angelus further and make his actions look more out of the question. You joined in on the fun rather than condemning it, making you just as bad as him for what he did.

You were at spawn during both slays, he's allowed to retaliate for whatever you did. It's not like you were heavily engaged in RP.

Again, you're calling me out for this (more aggressive initially with your little 'of course not' comment), but you're guilty of the exact same crime. You could have at least pointed out in text form what happened before he M202'd you rather than just trying to increase the severity of Angelus' actions portrayed by that video.

EDIT: What about him catching Moody's car with a physgun when he tried to get away from him, isn't that physgun abuse??

I started to record this right after he PROPPUSHED Moody's car(yes I asked moody and he let me come in his car before Angelus popped up in the middle of the road) watch this, it proves that I was in that car and I was PROPKILLED and PROPPUSHED in the car:


And about me killing Angelus, I know that you won't believe me, but I stopped recording after spectating him and then went to him. After he TPed to me when I was returning to spawn I started recording, I didn't "purposefully miss this out to defame Angelus further" as you said, and I really feel offended by that because you know how truthful I am about these issues and I wouldn't lie or bluff... Anyways, I was not very satisfied when Angelus slayed me twice and accused me of having god mode on (falsely slayed as I didn't have god mode on, maybe Angelus can say that he wasn't sure if I had god mode on to prove my point). And even if I wasn't RPing, that doesn't justify his TWO slays(even if I did have god mode on, which I didn't, he should have slayed me once, and not M202 me then slay me twice).....

I also remember getting warned for Noclipping for my own convenience, and I DIDNT INTERFERE with anyone
Sorry Chris, I'm not trying to be disrespectful or anything, but if Angelus can do what I can't, then you are clearly biased towards Angelus ...

I wonder why is Chris making up excuses and defending him, especially when he himself said that all the proof posted is valid. why not let Angelus speak himself about this (specifically about the part where "the proof is invalid because they were all having fun".

Why is Chris defending Angelus with all the proof here?!

Blocked wrote:
Blocked, first of all, he isn't talking about your video specifically, he is talking about the whole issue in general.

And do you seriously think that slaying admins is fun?? Is proppushing and propkilling people in cars fun? Is no clipping around while RPing and spawning vehicles and giving them to players fun? Is no clipping away from cops while wanted FUN?? Blocked, and others, seriously, STOP defending Angelus by saying that it's FUN, he said it himself, he approves that he did abuse and break a lot of rules, and he is willing to accept his punishment according to that. The way you specifically have been defending him is just PATHETIC. You are an Admin, and I don't think that you can break any rule or abuse your powers as a staff, you should stand against what he did, not just defend him because you had FUN...

Anyways, now I know which staff member is ok with breaking rules a lot for having fun, and now I know that you do not really understand the meaning of fun. What he did in the videos I was in WAS NOT fun at all. The rules aren't strict or the users would have complained a very long time ago if they were. You can have fun without breaking any rules, and even as a staff member, YOU SHOULD NOT break any rules for reasons like that. Anyways, Chris wrote the rules, and I think that he agrees with me on this, staff members shouldn't break any rules, I remember getting warned with some other mods a while back for accidentally breaking some very simple rules one time, not as much as Angelus did, and not that many rules... Anyways, the lead team now has an idea of where he went wrong, defending him because you had FUN won't help.

Not really. He's not exactly engaging in RP as a radio manager (nothing much to it, you know, driving around playing music), and sometimes superadmins stop people in their cars to talk to them in such a way, even take it to a roof.

You were killed by something else. Watch carefully, he swings the prop round but it is not in contact with anything when you die. Plus, you were spectating Angelus - therefore not technically RPing. You shouldn't be too upset about dying as a citizen in a car running around playing music.

You still failed to point out that that happened, which was clearly done purposefully as you knew it would make the innocence of Angelus show a little more.

Do I? Hmm. Wouldn't it have shown that you were fully unbiased to at least comment on what happened inbetween those scenes, and show the full story? Yes it would, and yes, I am calling you out, and in which case your ignorance doesn't impress me either:

It doesn't matter. You shot him, he can do whatever he wants in retaliation given that the whole thing was a muck about. It was literally 10-15 seconds you lost after killing him - you're making a mountain out of a molehill when you clearly showed angelus you were involved in the fun they were having. You simply just had to ask him to stop.

Within RP. Not whilst having a laugh.

Angelus was clearly just having fun with people (in most of the situations) OOC. Your warn will have been different, for noclipping to check a base or something - I can't remember the exact details.

Blazer
Your hypocrisy is real. Look at something you posted when confronted about CDM in the Dcx demotion thread:

To both:

...I'm allowed to defend who I want, and I perfectly justified each defense within the response. I don't go asking why everyone wants this dedicated member demoted without him receiving any warning EVER, and I'd appreciate if you don't do the same for me. It's not constructive at all.

You're clearly another victim of the way this is all being portrayed, 'all the proof' you say. Well, the majority of the proof has been dismissed by Blocked & Megan Fox - the alleged 'victims' who said that he consented to what Angelus was doing.

I'll post what I want, where I want if I feel I need to contribute my opinion just like everyone else in this thread is entitled to, thanks.


To both Scorpion & Blazer, you're welcome to say that I'm making stuff up if you actually properly read the response and give examples.

Oh, please. You could say the same about you killing him. You make it sound like there's a world crisis going on, I mean come on, we're not dealing with the Ebola outbreak here.

I'll quote exactly how I feel about this, as you've already said to blocked:

Regardless of whether he said that, I personally feel that his capacity was very restricted and cornered by this whole situation and I couldn't allow it to go un-argued.

Thanks, let me go get your nobel prize - you just single-handedly solved this entire issue in one post!

Seriously Chris, didn't you notice that I started to spectate Angelus when our car was flying around after he PROPPUSHED us?? I was happy RPing with moody and listening to his music, then Angelus starts to follow us and shove us with that thing... He CLEARLY killed both of us using that thing he had while Noclipping, and we were RPing, you cannot deny that... You can ask Angelus if you like, he'll give you a better insight on what he did exactly... Anyways the way he killed moody was even clearer, it clearly shows him propkilling him while he was still in his car, and moody was driving away from Angelus to avoid him. Anyways, read the chat after I get killed... Also he destroyed Moody's car with the M202 later, and I don't think that moody was happy... At minute 1, I did tell Angelus to stop the abuse, but he ignored me and blew up Moody's car..

Also, I was in an F1 and I noclipped back to my base if you recall. I was in my base before handling it. On the other hand, Angelus noclipped from spawn to the villa to have fun, and if that was not considered RP he wouldn't have "taken his revenge" and TPed to me to m202 me as a citizen...

Seriously Chris, if it really wasn't abuse or rule breaking I wouldn't have taken so much of my time to upload the videos or reply to everyone who thinks that Angelus is innocent.

He replied and he did say that everything in the videos is abuse/rulebreaking and he takes full responsibility for what he did, so I don't think that if he said that he did something wrong anyone can say that it isn't .... I mean he said it himself, he was wrong In all of the videos, I still DO NOT UNDERSTAND why all of you are still defending him..

Chris wrote:
I think I know what I posted and what I meant by it better than you, you are bringing this out of context, and I am not going to sit here and argue with you about the wrongs or rights about my demotion simply because I couldn't care less anymore.
I do not think you know the meaning of hipocrisy very well.

Either way, even if the proof how you say is invalid in most of these videos, video 1 would be enough.

I think that Chris is supporting him since it is his first time getting warned.

It still doesn't change the fact that Angelus broke a lot of rules countless times...

Darth
No. I was arguing the claim that he killed you with the prop. The prop didn't touch the car when you died, but you died just before it did (and I don't even know if it did at that point). You may have died from being shot in crossfire, or some other reason). If you really want me to, I'll slow that video down tenfold so you can see it better.

Moody was therefore the main person affected in the issue, as he was definitely propkilled by Angelus. We'll see if he was bothered by the little muck about he was having when he comes online next.

Not everyone notices that little box in the bottom left, by the way.

Well, I'm not here to argue about your warn as I don't know the real details of it.

You contradict yourself massively here. Since when was teleporting considered RP? Anyway, Angelus wasn't RPing and therefore he's allowed to noclip.

Great idea, next time what I'll do is press the upload button and get on with my day, and say that I spent 24 hours on the video I want to use to demote someone - because that makes the evidence oh-so much more valid.

He may have felt pressured by the situation to do so, and I don't feel that with the current situation Angelus had the capacity to validly say what he did. I am defending him because I think he needs a fair trial, and not to just give up.

Because we want what we see as the best outcome for this, and we CAN defend him for that reason.

Blazer
It's not what you meant, it's the fact that you made up an excuse for saying 'CDM doesn't matter.'

Since when do you, a demoted member of staff with an often questioned attitude to others, define what is 'enough' for a demotion? It's a lead team decision, but we'll take the expert opinion into account, thanks.

I think we have heard what everyone has to say so I'm going to lock this thread, before it gets any more out of control.

We will review everything in the meeting tomorrow and post our reply here.

The Lead Team was very disappointed to see the evidence presented today. Angelus had served the ZARP DarkRP server for just around a year, and for the most part until in the past few months, served very well: it takes quite a lot of skill and respect to get to a position such as Super Admin. We feel that overall, even outside of the evidence, Angelus had deteriorated and caused disruption to the general server gameplay, and for someone who was supposed to be a role model - he was no longer behaving as one.

We initiated a discussion, and then voted on the matter. We saw fit that we should suspend Angelus to provide justice and account for the recent problems, and remove any chance of the issues continuing.

Apologies for any inconvenience or disruptive experiences originating from Angelus' recent actions, and we hope that the outcome has satisfied anyone concerned about his behavior.

Thank you for your patience and input during this time, and if you have any queries, please contact any lead team member.

On behalf of the SSRP Lead Team,
Chris

ACCEPTED