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TOPIC: [TTT] Agaricus Bisporus' Punishment Appeal

[TTT] Agaricus Bisporus' Punishment Appeal 5 years 2 months ago #1163694

Name - Agaricus Bisporus (aka Pawoss)
STEAM-ID - STEAM_1:1:506104629
Staff Members Name - davidov007
Punishment Reason - RDM - Don't join gunfights.
Server - Zarp TTT

Story/Situation - During a match of TTT, I was picked as an innocent. While roaming, I saw someone (Player X) pushing an afk player (Player Y) off a cliff. Said AFK player fell and took damage, but did not react for obvious reasons.
Given that I did not know the roles of either player and that pushing someone off a cliff is KOSable, I opened fire on A and killed him after a short firefight.

Only to then be reported and be brought into the report chat under davidov007's supervision. After a discussion, I was warned for "Joining a gunfight.". The admin's reasoning is that since Player Y did not call a kos, I had joined a gunfight and RDM'd Player X.

This result left me confused - given how I saw people pushing others off cliffs and getting shot immediately numerous times - so I decided to ask around the server for clarification.

Ignoring the answers given to me by non-staff members (which I appreciated nonetheless), I decided to ask Shadow RDM Squatta for more information, and his reply stated how pushing someone off a cliff/hazard, where they might potentially die, is indeed a KOSable act.
I wanted to create this appeal for clarity, given how counter-intuitive the warn appears, in my opinion.

Extra Information - Following are screenshots of both the report chat with davidov007 and Shadow's statement.
I apologize for the snarky attitude during the report chat.
A) https://imgur.com/a/ZBzfi5u
B but not the emoticon damnit) https://imgur.com/a/yAsSirW
C)https://imgur.com/a/uuX1Z2o
The discussion prolonged for a handful more sentences - mostly related to my last line in the chat - but they were not relevant to this appeal, and therefore were not screencapped.

D) https://imgur.com/a/fZ16tcG

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[TTT] Agaricus Bisporus' Punishment Appeal 5 years 2 months ago #1163695

Handling	Henny Offline Legendary Member LLHA Posts: 2975 Thanks received: 2235 Karma: 24
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[TTT] Agaricus Bisporus' Punishment Appeal 5 years 2 months ago #1163696

Just want to point this out to both Lotto and David before I speak to David about this 2.6 Valid KOS Reasons - Pushing someone with a crowbar near an edge or hazard.	Henny Offline Legendary Member LLHA Posts: 2975 Thanks received: 2235 Karma: 24
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[TTT] Agaricus Bisporus' Punishment Appeal 5 years 2 months ago #1163698

Henny wrote: Just want to point this out to both Lotto and David before I speak to David about this 2.6 Valid KOS Reasons - Pushing someone with a crowbar near an edge or hazard. A bit strange that they didn't "know" about this	wavE Offline Junior Boarder Did i ask? Posts: 172 Thanks received: 72 Karma: 2
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[TTT] Agaricus Bisporus' Punishment Appeal 5 years 2 months ago #1163703

I might be D tier but I still give you my support	Chespin Offline Legendary Member stay outta tha fiyah Posts: 2230 Thanks received: 1337 Karma: -135
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[TTT] Agaricus Bisporus' Punishment Appeal 5 years 2 months ago #1163706

Henny wrote:

Just want to point this out to both Lotto and David before I speak to David about this

2.6 Valid KOS Reasons
- Pushing someone with a crowbar near an edge or hazard.

Could that possibly be understood as you can kill someone for pushing yourself near an edge/hazard, but not for pushing someone else? (The same way you could kill someone for shooting at yourself, but not for shooting at another player unless you knew that player had not committed any traitorous acts). I do understand their viewpoint in that if you see a player pushing someone near an edge/hazard, you don’t know if the player they are pushing is a traitor or not, and therefore this could still come under joining fights just as much as killing someone who is shooting at another player.

Not sure my opinion on this appeal, but maybe that valid KOS reason isn’t the best, as it doesn’t exactly fit with the PvP rule.

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Last Edit: 5 years 2 months ago by eddie..

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[TTT] Agaricus Bisporus' Punishment Appeal 5 years 2 months ago #1163707

Eddie. wrote:

Henny wrote:

Just want to point this out to both Lotto and David before I speak to David about this

2.6 Valid KOS Reasons
- Pushing someone with a crowbar near an edge or hazard.

Could that possibly be understood as you can kill someone for pushing yourself near an edge/hazard, but not for pushing someone else? (The same way you could kill someone for shooting at yourself, but not for shooting at another player unless you knew that player had not committed any traitorous acts). I do see their viewpoint in that if you see a player pushing someone near an edge/hazard, you don’t know if the player they are pushing is a traitor, and therefore this could still come under joining fights just as much as killing someone who is shooting at another player.

Not sure my opinion on this appeal, but maybe that valid KOS reason isn’t the best, as it doesn’t exactly fit with the PvP rule.

Their logic on this is quite odd. They are basically saying traitors can go around pushing AFKs off edges and as long as it doesn't kill them, you can't kill them as you have no information if they are a T or not.
Also the rule doesn't state that you are the one being pushed off the edge, rather it just states pushing someone off an edge = KOS. I understand where the confusion could come from and I will try to change it Sunday.

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Last Edit: 5 years 2 months ago by Henny.

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[TTT] Agaricus Bisporus' Punishment Appeal 5 years 2 months ago #1163710

Player X damages Player Y. Player Y is AFK. I find it reasonable to KOS Player X, since being AFK is not a valid KOS reason, and by killing him, Player X has either committed RDM or a false KOS, both of which are something one can be killed for.	Pawoss Offline Fresh Boarder Posts: 6 Thanks received: 1 Karma: 0
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[TTT] Agaricus Bisporus' Punishment Appeal 5 years 2 months ago #1163711

Pawoss wrote:

Player X damages Player Y. Player Y is AFK.
I find it reasonable to KOS Player X, since being AFK is not a valid KOS reason, and by killing him, Player X has either committed RDM or a false KOS, both of which are something one can be killed for.

Unless you’ve watched the AFK player the whole round and know for a fact they haven’t committed any traitorous acts at any point, that’s not really the case... They could have been witnessed committing a traitorous act earlier on and then gone AFK later.

However, in the case of pushing people near edges/hazards, that’s more or less a KOSable action no matter what I suppose, which solves the complication Henny mentioned, and means you did nothing wrong in this instance.

eddie.
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Last Edit: 5 years 2 months ago by eddie..

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[TTT] Agaricus Bisporus' Punishment Appeal 5 years 2 months ago #1163712

They are basically saying traitors can go around pushing AFKs off edges and as long as it doesn't kill them, you can't kill them as you have no information if they are a T or not. This is exactly the point I was trying to make when I said: so does that mean i can crowbar afk people to 20 hp	Pawoss Offline Fresh Boarder Posts: 6 Thanks received: 1 Karma: 0
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[TTT] Agaricus Bisporus' Punishment Appeal 5 years 2 months ago #1163713

Eddie. wrote:

Pawoss wrote:

Player X damages Player Y. Player Y is AFK.
I find it reasonable to KOS Player X, since being AFK is not a valid KOS reason, and by killing him, Player X has either committed RDM or a false KOS, both of which are something one can be killed for.

Unless you’ve watched the AFK player the whole round and know for a fact they haven’t committed any traitorous acts at any point, that’s not really the case... They could have been witnessed committing a traitorous act earlier on and then gone AFK later.

However, in the case of pushing people near edges/hazards, that’s more or less a KOSable action no matter what I suppose, which means you did nothing wrong in this instance.

Its more common sense than anything. If you see two people actively fighting, and one pushes the other off a hazard, you wait for them to fight it out as it is a gunfight.
If you watch someone push an AFK off a hazard, it is safe to assume the person pushing them is a T.

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The following user(s) said Thank You: eddie.

[TTT] Agaricus Bisporus' Punishment Appeal 5 years 2 months ago #1163732

After speaking to David, we have decided to accept this appeal. He realized he made a mistake and ensured it won't happen in the future. Lotto will also be spoken to about this incident. Thanks for making this appeal, this has been	Henny Offline Legendary Member LLHA Posts: 2975 Thanks received: 2235 Karma: 24
Ex - TTT Server Owner Ex - TF2 HA, Prophunt SA Ex - SSRP Administrator Last Edit: 5 years 2 months ago by Henny. The topic has been locked. The following user(s) said Thank You: Davidov007