TOPIC: RDM or not?

Today, while I was playing on the TTT server, an admin (Harry RDM Squatta) called a KOS on an innocent (another admin, IIRC) over voice chat for supposedly injuring him. That player turned out to be an innocent, so I shot Harry, who had pointed out that if the player was an innocent, he'd willingly surrender to my sniper rifle. It was, after all, a KOS on an innocent.

After I killed him, he, too, turned out to be an innocent. At that point, dingofetch (a third admin) shot me, and claims that if you kill an innocent, for any reason, you can be KOSd. He then shut down the discussion into the matter initiated by Conor (a moderator).

It is my understanding that calling a false KOS is, in itself, a KOSable offense, but that it only goes as far as the person who called the false KOS. In other words, it is my understanding that killing someone who called a false KOS is not a KOSable offense in itself. Who is right?

I have video proof of everything if you require it, as I was streaming at the time.

The rule where you had to ask a user as to what their reason was for killing an innocent was removed a long time ago, therefore if they kill an innocent you can kill them. The act of killing an innocent player is deemed a traitorous act as its the whole job of traitors is to kill innocents. In cases like this it would be very easy for traitors to lie and say "well he was KOSed" and then go about their business as a traitor, which would be a little annoying imo. Its the players choice whether they believe things like KOSes, if as you say the KOS was in voice chat it would be very unfair if someone killed you after you killed an innocent only to be warned for it as they did not hear the KOS for whatever reason. This is the reason why the karma system exists.

I went back and rewatched that part - there was a "Prestige Invalid is a traitor!" message in text chat, plain as day. Does that change anything?

Orion wrote: The issue is he does not have to believe your reasoning for killing the innocent. In these situations the only punishment players need is karma loss.

So to be clear, killing an innocent who falsely KOSd someone is, in itself, KOSable? EDIT: And furthermore, killing someone who KOSd someone who falsely KOSd someone is also KOSable? And killing someone who killed someone who KOSd someone who falsely KOSd someone is also KOSable?

2.5 Player Versus Player
If two individuals are fighting and you have no proof which could be the traitor, you must wait before joining in the fight until one player dies and they either; identify the body/the round ends/you question them.

2.6 Valid KOS Reasons
There are many KOS reasons and they all work in different situations and scenarios, here are a few:

- Holding/Using a Traitor only weapon without announcing that he got it from a traitor.
- Ignoring unidentified bodies/C4 etc.
- Declaring invalid KOS on other players.
- Turning themselves in i.e. "I'm a traitor, in the traitor room" etc.
- Seeing a player inside of a Traitor only room.
- Failure to answer to a life check.
- Throwing a incendiary/discombobulator grenade near the player.
- Pushing someone with a crowbar near an edge or hazard.
- Attempting to obstruct the Golden block from reaching the tester.
- Attempting to obstruct diamond cubes from reaching the furnace.

Harry declared an invalid KOS on Prestige, as I've already pointed out and as I pointed out before you shut down the discussion. EDIT: The body was also identified before I shot Harry.

Orion wrote: Right, so you killed harry and it wasn't RDM, then I Id'd harry's body and killed you, which also was not RDM.

Orion wrote: Look at it this way. A guy walks in on you killing an innocent, he has not been there for any of the prior actions and arrives just as you kill the innocent. Is it fair to that guy that he should then be warned for RDM despite you doing the one thing that traitors are meant to do? The logic does not just apply to this situation but also things like if an innocent attacks you and you kill them, you may still be KOSed for it. If people do not want to risk waiting around and asking people why they have killed innocents thats fine, they get punished by losing karma.

So to be clear, had I been an innocent, it would've been OK to kill you, dingofetch? All that matters is that you kill an innocent, no matter the context, yes? Even if they literally commit a treasonous offense, which Harry did, anyone who dares harm them is also committing a treasonous offense?

Orion wrote: But in that situation a traitor could see that Harry called a false KOS, kill Harry and then be unable to be killed for it. Despite committing a traitorous act he becomes untouchable and protected by the rules.

Orion wrote:
Unless he is a T

Orion wrote: Thats the equivalent of calling a KOS, so it doesnt change anything. The bottom line is that killing an innocent is kosable (unless of course you are a detective). The amount of issues asking someone why they killed an inno would cause would be immense, and were already listed. Trust me, I've been on servers before where this is the case, and it just allows for traitors to get away with much more.
Orion wrote: Yes, killing an innocent is kosable regardless of the circumstances (unless you are a detective).

Miia wrote:
Yes, that's a risk when innocents RDM other innocents. Harry committed a treasonous offense, so I killed him, as is my right within the confines of the rules. You're saying that all that matters is the outcome, and the context is irrelevant. You're saying that you need to know in advance whether or not someone is an innocent or a traitor, before you can kill them for committing actions that validate KOS's in the first place.

Orion wrote:
False KOS's are KOSable.
Killing an innocent is KOSable.
Apply that logic to ANY QUESTION YOU HAVE and it will be solved all on it's own.

Henny wrote:
I take it that if you do happen to be a detective, you're in the clear?

I'll keep this thread in mind the next time I'm on your TTT server.

dingofetch wrote: Then what is the point of having a list of things that make for valid KOS's if you're just going to ignore all that and focus on whether the person who committed those actions is an innocent or a traitor after they've been killed?

Orion wrote: The logic you used to kill Harry would be the same logic i would apply to kill you for killing him. You cannot possible know whether the innocent that Harry KOSed had committed a traitorous act, if he had it would have given Harry a valid reason to KOS them. So despite Harry having a perfectly valid reason to KOS that innocent you still killed him. You did basically the same thing you are arguing should be RDM.

Orion wrote:
Come on, use your head. Detectives can't be KOS'd. When was the last time you saw a Detective doubling as a Traitor?

Orion wrote: If someone calls a false kos on an innocent and a detective kills them, why would an innocent suddenly kill him? He has 0 chance of being the traitor, so it wouldn't make logical sense and would just be RDM. I am not saying the detective can just go around and RDM as he wishes, rather, he is allowed to follow the KOSes he deems correct.