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Poll: Should the policy be harder?

I agree	10	90.9%
I don't agree	1	9.1%
Total number of voters: 11 ( Jason., danielmark2356, Hoops_1991, RFlex, Miia ) See more LonelyDodo, Anarchist1771, OnionRings, SyStem, TheXnator, spodermon
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TOPIC: Harsher punishment hackers

Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #746805

Even though Raeker is terrible at presenting Chutes argument and reply to this he is right though. If hackers are such a big problem then a really good player is just of a big problem, because they do the same thing: beating the majority of players. Besides Zarp has evolved enough do ensure cheating doesn't give you the biggest advantage, items do. If you have let's say a Jugger suit with a Tgun versus a hacker with psg you're going to win every time no matter what kinda of crazy snaps the hacker pulls. And sure while it's frustrating to lose 1v1's against hackers in general keep in mind that rarely happens and it's not gamebreaking even though it sounds like so due to most people comparing it to previous experiences against hackers in games like Cs:go where the main goal is to win, however Zarp doesn't have that kind of goal making hacking a big waste of time.

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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #746923

The Anti Cheat should be able to stop them to be fair	Lewis. Offline Senior Boarder Posts: 1857 Posts: 487 Thanks received: 125 Karma: 2
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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #746926

But I use citizen that's why I tap everyone I don't want a ban I am nice person if u get to know me .	JakeTheDog_ Offline Gold Boarder Silent March till the end Posts: 2225 Thanks received: 308 Karma: -14
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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #746927

Lewis. wrote:

The Anti Cheat should be able to stop them to be fair

To an extent Anti-cheat does do some of the catching if people are extremely dumb enough to inject .lua scripts whilst joining/in-game.

But then when Lead Team uses AC it doesn't catch every hack (ESP, Bigpackets are easy) which is why the hacking policy sorta changed into a vote-based decision so if someone who's more experienced can point out whether or not a user is hacking should anticheat fail to immediately catch anything (due to detouring or hidden overlays)

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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #746975

Aspect wrote:

Even though Raeker is terrible at presenting Chutes argument and reply to this he is right though. If hackers are such a big problem then a really good player is just of a big problem, because they do the same thing: beating the majority of players. Besides Zarp has evolved enough do ensure cheating doesn't give you the biggest advantage, items do. If you have let's say a Jugger suit with a Tgun versus a hacker with psg you're going to win every time no matter what kinda of crazy snaps the hacker pulls. And sure while it's frustrating to lose 1v1's against hackers in general keep in mind that rarely happens and it's not gamebreaking even though it sounds like so due to most people comparing it to previous experiences against hackers in games like Cs:go where the main goal is to win, however Zarp doesn't have that kind of goal making hacking a big waste of time.

That's the thing though not everyone can afford Jug Suits and Tguns. Meaning there are still lots of affected players, Hackers still have a huge advantage over others Rich or not you won't always have those items to back you up.

Remember the whole "hacking" epidemic that occurred when everyone thought or still thinks that I had cheats? Well if you say that "hackers" will lose if there is a Jug Suit and Tgun that is not the case. Hackers can be rich aswell experienced players can cheat at anytime (note this isn't me saying I am or was cheating it's just a counter argument) making it even harder for players to enjoy their time on the server. I was claimed to be a "hacker" and a Jug Suit didn't always save you guys.

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Aspect wrote:

you always manage to 1 shot us even though you're extremely exposed in the open and you shouldn't really have a chance to kill us. You just make these crazy 1 taps not even Hermione did when he played, and I can tell you he played 18 hours a day at one point.

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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #746988

That's the thing though not everyone can afford Jug Suits and Tguns. Meaning there are still lots of affected players, Hackers still have a huge advantage over others Rich or not you won't always have those items to back you up.

Yeah and not everyone can afford hacks yet they exist. You're ignoring my endgame argument which states someone with the best possible aimhack would never beat someone with a suit. This goes to early game aswell (if you exclude explosives) as you have your own base with 1 way props and such that a hacker can never outplay you as he will be a target from a 360 degree angle, while he only is able to shot you through the props you choose to open.

Remember the whole "hacking" epidemic that occurred when everyone thought or still thinks that I had cheats? Well if you say that "hackers" will lose if there is a Jug Suit and Tgun that is not the case. Hackers can be rich aswell experienced players can cheat at anytime (note this isn't me saying I am or was cheating it's just a counter argument) making it even harder for players to enjoy their time on the server. I was claimed to be a "hacker" and a Jug Suit didn't always save you guys.

First of all, i know you've turned off your 'hacks' weeks ago as I have not have had a single problem facing you in 1v1's (in different names) recently, but i guess that's just a coincidence lol. Either way since you turned it off you're bragging about the accusations which is kinda sad.

Either way if you're rich and hacking that still doesn't give you the skills needed to outplay someone who's generally better than you. It's about interpretation, experience, predictions, suprising the enemy and more in order to outplay someone which you don't have and that's the reason you're not able to raid the Disco base while it's guarded by some of the main people in it.

So my conclusion pretty much is the fear of facing hackers. It creates competition and demands you to get creative on the battlefield rather than moving your mouse fast with coconut oil under it. If there was no hackers I would not fear anything on Zarp pretty much which makes it boring quite fast, especially if Zarp lost it's players by banning every hacker permamently for good that they came across (keep in mind players contribute alot to the server just by playing on it so they deserve seconds chances as they contribute to making the Zarp playerbase bigger.

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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #746990

Aspect wrote:

That's the thing though not everyone can afford Jug Suits and Tguns. Meaning there are still lots of affected players, Hackers still have a huge advantage over others Rich or not you won't always have those items to back you up.

Yeah and not everyone can afford hacks yet they exist. You're ignoring my endgame argument which states someone with the best possible aimhack would never beat someone with a suit. This goes to early game aswell (if you exclude explosives) as you have your own base with 1 way props and such that a hacker can never outplay you as he will be a target from a 360 degree angle, while he only is able to shot you through the props you choose to open.

Remember the whole "hacking" epidemic that occurred when everyone thought or still thinks that I had cheats? Well if you say that "hackers" will lose if there is a Jug Suit and Tgun that is not the case. Hackers can be rich aswell experienced players can cheat at anytime (note this isn't me saying I am or was cheating it's just a counter argument) making it even harder for players to enjoy their time on the server. I was claimed to be a "hacker" and a Jug Suit didn't always save you guys.

First of all, i know you've turned off your 'hacks' weeks ago as I have not have had a single problem facing you in 1v1's (in different names) recently, but i guess that's just a coincidence lol. Either way since you turned it off you're bragging about the accusations which is kinda sad.

Either way if you're rich and hacking that still doesn't give you the skills needed to outplay someone who's generally better than you. It's about interpretation, experience, predictions, suprising the enemy and more in order to outplay someone which you don't have and that's the reason you're not able to raid the Disco base while it's guarded by some of the main people in it.

So my conclusion pretty much is the fear of facing hackers. It creates competition and demands you to get creative on the battlefield rather than moving your mouse fast with coconut oil under it. If there was no hackers I would not fear anything on Zarp pretty much which makes it boring quite fast, especially if Zarp lost it's players by banning every hacker permamently for good that they came across (keep in mind players contribute alot to the server just by playing on it so they deserve seconds chances as they contribute to making the Zarp playerbase bigger.

Never used them in the first place but ight there bud
Also we rarely encounter each other in 1v1 situations anymore as you don't defend outside I'm also a lot less active then I was before.
Either way we aren't arguing about wether I was cheating or not but I still get accused a few times a week.

Either way the problem is, even though you can defend yourself against a hacker doesn't mean that they dont have advantages. If you haven't noticed only the "good / experienced" players tend to base nowadays which is literally just BiB and FA and the other smaller gangs that surround them. When a player decides to base that ISNT involved in those gangs than they will most likely lose (not always). We need to stop cheaters in general especially so newer players will want to continue basing.

Also players with less skill and balance to defend themselves tend to hide printers a lot and cheaters can easily find that and start getting rich over time and start taking on bigger enemies like BiB or FA with items that can defend them.
Cheaters are a problem mainly for newer/uskilled players and we have a lot of those, the server doesn't revolve around us.

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Aspect wrote:

you always manage to 1 shot us even though you're extremely exposed in the open and you shouldn't really have a chance to kill us. You just make these crazy 1 taps not even Hermione did when he played, and I can tell you he played 18 hours a day at one point.

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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #747008

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]

That's the thing though not everyone can afford Jug Suits and Tguns. Meaning there are still lots of affected players, Hackers still have a huge advantage over others Rich or not you won't always have those items to back you up.

Yeah and not everyone can afford hacks yet they exist. You're ignoring my endgame argument which states someone with the best possible aimhack would never beat someone with a suit. This goes to early game aswell (if you exclude explosives) as you have your own base with 1 way props and such that a hacker can never outplay you as he will be a target from a 360 degree angle, while he only is able to shot you through the props you choose to open.
Remember the whole "hacking" epidemic that occurred when everyone thought or still thinks that I had cheats? Well if you say that "hackers" will lose if there is a Jug Suit and Tgun that is not the case. Hackers can be rich aswell experienced players can cheat at anytime (note this isn't me saying I am or was cheating it's just a counter argument) making it even harder for players to enjoy their time on the server. I was claimed to be a "hacker" and a Jug Suit didn't always save you guys.

First of all, i know you've turned off your 'hacks' weeks ago as I have not have had a single problem facing you in 1v1's (in different names) recently, but i guess that's just a coincidence lol. Either way since you turned it off you're bragging about the accusations which is kinda sad.

Either way if you're rich and hacking that still doesn't give you the skills needed to outplay someone who's generally better than you. It's about interpretation, experience, predictions, suprising the enemy and more in order to outplay someone which you don't have and that's the reason you're not able to raid the Disco base while it's guarded by some of the main people in it.

So my conclusion pretty much is the fear of facing hackers. It creates competition and demands you to get creative on the battlefield rather than moving your mouse fast with coconut oil under it. If there was no hackers I would not fear anything on Zarp pretty much which makes it boring quite fast, especially if Zarp lost it's players by banning every hacker permamently for good that they came across (keep in mind players contribute alot to the server just by playing on it so they deserve seconds chances as they contribute to making the Zarp playerbase bigger.
Never used them in the first place but ight there bud
Also we rarely encounter each other in 1v1 situations anymore as you don't defend outside I'm also a lot less active then I was before.
Either way we aren't arguing about wether I was cheating or not but I still get accused a few times a week.

Either way the problem is, even though you can defend yourself against a hacker doesn't mean that they dont have advantages. If you haven't noticed only the "good / experienced" players tend to base nowadays which is literally just BiB and FA and the other smaller gangs that surround them. When a player decides to base that ISNT involved in those gangs than they will most likely lose (not always). We need to stop cheaters in general especially so newer players will want to continue basing.

Also players with less skill and balance to defend themselves tend to hide printers a lot and cheaters can easily find that and start getting rich over time and start taking on bigger enemies like BiB or FA with items that can defend them.
Cheaters are a problem mainly for newer/uskilled players and we have a lot of those, the server doesn't revolve around us.

I'm not really going to reply to any of that cause you didn't really answer any of my arguments. Regarding finding printers with hacks I don't support it but if you knew how much money you can print just by leaving the computer over the night just to come on the next morning and get tons of free cash you didn't even work for is unfair. Sure there are Scan Masters and such but as not enough players consistently check for hidden printers (especially when school starts and less people play) it is pretty much the same thing as printing cash on the FP servers if you've ever done that.

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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #747057

I really don't think having a harsher punishment for hacking will have the effect any of you think it will. If you want to talk about something that emboldens hackers its the fact that they have nothing to fear from the game itself. In every other game hackers are at war with not only the players and the server owners but also the game developers/creators. This is a critical advantage that we are missing in Garrys Mod and people know that. The game its self does very little to stop hacking with the current VAC system needing to be constantly manualy updated and only auto detects a small amount of ancient hacks. Last time Garry did a ban wave for hackers he detected outside of VAC was in 2013. Why would cheat developers want to waste time and money trying to fight developers when there is fucking free reign here in Garrys Mod. The only thing thats gonna change that is Facepunch stepping it up but don't count on that ever happing in Gmod...

Coming from experience I know if we were to change our policy nothing would change. People would still be just as tempted to hack greeted by all the undetectable hacks they could get. Those who might be a little more scared of doing it on their main would utilize a VPN and ALT to hack undetected and untraceable because they can. Those who we did catch and banned seeing they would never be unbanned and wanting to cause more trouble would do what I said above and continue to cause problems on alts. If they dont see a second chance posible there is nothing to lose from using alts to come back on further continuing the problems. Bottom line is people who want to hack are going to and there is nothing that we can change to discourage that I promise you.

We have updated our polices to alow for the team to review outside evidence for hacking accusations. Something I think is a slippery slope unless its super fucking blatant. But I think thats all that needed to be changed. I've seen what happens when hackers are perma banned instantly it changes nothing if not makes things worse.

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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #747059

EMP wrote:

I really don't think having a harsher punishment for hacking will have the effect any of you think it will. If you want to talk about something that emboldens hackers its the fact that they have nothing to fear from the game itself. In every other game hackers are at war with not only the players and the server owners but also the game developers/creators. This is a critical advantage that we are missing in Garrys Mod and people know that. The game its self does very little to stop hacking with the current VAC system needing to be constantly manualy updated and only auto detects a small amount of ancient hacks. Last time Garry did a ban wave for hackers he detected outside of VAC was in 2013. Why would cheat developers want to waste time and money trying to fight developers when there is fucking free reign here in Garrys Mod. The only thing thats gonna change that is Facepunch stepping it up but don't count on that ever happing in Gmod...

Coming from experience I know if we were to change our policy nothing would change. People would still be just as tempted to hack greeted by all the undetectable hacks they could get. Those who might be a little more scared of doing it on their main would utilize a VPN and ALT to hack undetected and untraceable because they can. Those who we did catch and banned seeing they would never be unbanned and wanting to cause more trouble would do what I said above and continue to cause problems on alts. If they dont see a second chance posible there is nothing to lose from using alts to come back on further continuing the problems. Bottom line is people who want to hack are going to and there is nothing that we can change to discourage that I promise you.

We have updated our polices to alow for the team to review outside evidence for hacking accusations. Something I think is a slippery slope unless its super fucking blatant. But I think thats all that needed to be changed. I've seen what happens when hackers are perma banned instantly it changes nothing if not makes things worse.

But the problem is third and fourth chances have and will be given. Eventually there needs to be a cut off.

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Aspect wrote:

you always manage to 1 shot us even though you're extremely exposed in the open and you shouldn't really have a chance to kill us. You just make these crazy 1 taps not even Hermione did when he played, and I can tell you he played 18 hours a day at one point.

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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #747061

EMP wrote:

I really don't think having a harsher punishment for hacking will have the effect any of you think it will. If you want to talk about something that emboldens hackers its the fact that they have nothing to fear from the game itself. In every other game hackers are at war with not only the players and the server owners but also the game developers/creators. This is a critical advantage that we are missing in Garrys Mod and people know that. The game its self does very little to stop hacking with the current VAC system needing to be constantly manualy updated and only auto detects a small amount of ancient hacks. Last time Garry did a ban wave for hackers he detected outside of VAC was in 2013. Why would cheat developers want to waste time and money trying to fight developers when there is fucking free reign here in Garrys Mod. The only thing thats gonna change that is Facepunch stepping it up but don't count on that ever happing in Gmod...

Coming from experience I know if we were to change our policy nothing would change. People would still be just as tempted to hack greeted by all the undetectable hacks they could get. Those who might be a little more scared of doing it on their main would utilize a VPN and ALT to hack undetected and untraceable because they can. Those who we did catch and banned seeing they would never be unbanned and wanting to cause more trouble would do what I said above and continue to cause problems on alts. If they dont see a second chance posible there is nothing to lose from using alts to come back on further continuing the problems. Bottom line is people who want to hack are going to and there is nothing that we can change to discourage that I promise you.

We have updated our polices to alow for the team to review outside evidence for hacking accusations. Something I think is a slippery slope unless its super fucking blatant. But I think thats all that needed to be changed. I've seen what happens when hackers are perma banned instantly it changes nothing if not makes things worse.

I kinda disagree, the thing about having a policy that allows hackers to get a first strike and get away with it, is what encourages them to cheat in the first place. If you get caught hacking the first time, it's only a kick/warn. If this would simply be changed to a ban, I think that would scare a lot of people, rather than them thinking they have a free pass the first time they get caught.

I agree it's a problem that the players who are banned can log onto alts and use a VPN, however, this is a problem in every game, and it's very hard to fix this. But I disagree when you say that it makes it worse, because when a main account gets permanent banned, and they then log onto an alt, where they use a VPN, they must be extremely careful not to draw attention, and it's only a matter of time before people start noticing a completely new account that goes around 1 tapping everyone, and sooner or later, someone is gonna rat that person out, since he must be playing with some of his friends on the server.

I despise hacks, but I cant lie, when I figured out that you only got warned/kicked on the first offense, I was kinda tempted myself.

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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #747070

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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #747080

Changing the punishments for hacking would only bring fear to those in the community that wish to hack, given that the majority of hackers that come through the servers are not part of the community and have no intent of staying don't actually care about the punishment given but rather the amount of damage they can cause in their time of madness. The time-zone in which these hackers get away with most things is one not covered by lead team members, so rather than trying to put all the effort into a change that would not have much effect, how about spending time into getting staff members that cover time-zones that are not currently covered this would also help with the rule-breakers in these time-zones.

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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #747083

I guess im the only one that thinks its fine as it is	Patrick TM Offline Legendary Member Zarp Map Developer Posts: 1124 Thanks received: 615 Karma: 21
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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #747085

I was genuinely tempted to hack when I heard that you only get a kick if you get caught the first time, what do I have to lose if I just hack once and stop? I get all the illegitimate benefits of using hacks up until the point of getting caught once then I can stop and continue as normal. What I really don't understand is the logic behind giving them a second chance.	Denis Offline Diamond Boarder Posts: 2812 Thanks received: 1365 Karma: -49
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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #747098

EMP wrote:

I really don't think having a harsher punishment for hacking will have the effect any of you think it will. If you want to talk about something that emboldens hackers its the fact that they have nothing to fear from the game itself. In every other game hackers are at war with not only the players and the server owners but also the game developers/creators. This is a critical advantage that we are missing in Garrys Mod and people know that. The game its self does very little to stop hacking with the current VAC system needing to be constantly manualy updated and only auto detects a small amount of ancient hacks. Last time Garry did a ban wave for hackers he detected outside of VAC was in 2013. Why would cheat developers want to waste time and money trying to fight developers when there is fucking free reign here in Garrys Mod. The only thing thats gonna change that is Facepunch stepping it up but don't count on that ever happing in Gmod...

Coming from experience I know if we were to change our policy nothing would change. People would still be just as tempted to hack greeted by all the undetectable hacks they could get. Those who might be a little more scared of doing it on their main would utilize a VPN and ALT to hack undetected and untraceable because they can. Those who we did catch and banned seeing they would never be unbanned and wanting to cause more trouble would do what I said above and continue to cause problems on alts. If they dont see a second chance posible there is nothing to lose from using alts to come back on further continuing the problems. Bottom line is people who want to hack are going to and there is nothing that we can change to discourage that I promise you.

We have updated our polices to alow for the team to review outside evidence for hacking accusations. Something I think is a slippery slope unless its super fucking blatant. But I think thats all that needed to be changed. I've seen what happens when hackers are perma banned instantly it changes nothing if not makes things worse.

Out of curiosity, what would be the argument against a temporary ban on first offense? I agree that a permanent ban is both too harsh and has too little of an effect, but a few day ban or one week ban on first offense would still be managable, no?

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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #747130

He was not banned/kicked/warned for this....	TimeForPug Offline Adept Boarder Posts: 6768 Thanks received: 1212 Karma: -15
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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #747148

EMP wrote:

Those who we did catch and banned seeing they would never be unbanned and wanting to cause more trouble would do what I said above and continue to cause problems on alts. If they dont see a second chance posible there is nothing to lose from using alts to come back on further continuing the problems. Bottom line is people who want to hack are going to and there is nothing that we can change to discourage that I promise you.

Thats what I thought aswell, I told myself that I wouldnt even attempt to return and I would cause problems via alts.
That lasted long didnt it?

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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #747150

Didn't we already vote on something along this lines a few weeks ago, I feel like Morgan or someone wrote a pretty extensive post about this matter.	Getzco Offline Senior Boarder Posts: 520 Thanks received: 299 Karma: 3
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Harsher punishment hackers 7 years 5 months ago #747179

EMP wrote:

I really don't think having a harsher punishment for hacking will have the effect any of you think it will. If you want to talk about something that emboldens hackers its the fact that they have nothing to fear from the game itself. In every other game hackers are at war with not only the players and the server owners but also the game developers/creators. This is a critical advantage that we are missing in Garrys Mod and people know that. The game its self does very little to stop hacking with the current VAC system needing to be constantly manualy updated and only auto detects a small amount of ancient hacks. Last time Garry did a ban wave for hackers he detected outside of VAC was in 2013. Why would cheat developers want to waste time and money trying to fight developers when there is fucking free reign here in Garrys Mod. The only thing thats gonna change that is Facepunch stepping it up but don't count on that ever happing in Gmod...

Coming from experience I know if we were to change our policy nothing would change. People would still be just as tempted to hack greeted by all the undetectable hacks they could get. Those who might be a little more scared of doing it on their main would utilize a VPN and ALT to hack undetected and untraceable because they can. Those who we did catch and banned seeing they would never be unbanned and wanting to cause more trouble would do what I said above and continue to cause problems on alts. If they dont see a second chance posible there is nothing to lose from using alts to come back on further continuing the problems. Bottom line is people who want to hack are going to and there is nothing that we can change to discourage that I promise you.

We have updated our polices to alow for the team to review outside evidence for hacking accusations. Something I think is a slippery slope unless its super fucking blatant. But I think thats all that needed to be changed. I've seen what happens when hackers are perma banned instantly it changes nothing if not makes things worse.

People shouldnt be literary perma banned, They should be banned for long enough to change thier minds. Most people wont care about being banned for the first month or 2. But after a couple of months though, They will slowly start shifting back and regretting thier decision.

You mentioned that if people are perma banned and they dont have a chance to come back, They would cause more problems with alts. But if you think about it, That person actually cares somewhat. If he literarly didnt care, He wouldnt bother using alts to cause problems. I can almost guarantee you that in a few months, The person who spammed alts, Will attempt to appeal thier ban and actually apologise with real words, It really depends on how much time he was banned for though, I will use my self as an example for this.
(Time that has passed since my CM ban and my attempts to appeal)
3 months - I wrote a "Fake" apology and requested to be unbanned. (Denied)
4 months - I copied my last email and I changed it a bit (Denied), At this point I say: "Fuck it lol, I dont give a shit about zarp anymore, Lead team is full of cunts".

7 months - I write another apology this time its apologetic but I refuse to take responsability, Saying that Other / Former Lead Team Members were also a factor (Denied). Once again I blame the lead team but as time goes along, I start to reliase that I was the one who fucked up.

10 months - At this point, I get to the point where I look back at what I did and I relaise that I was simply being a immature and egotistical 14 year old thinking I was untouchable. I look forward to rebuild and improve my relations with Lead Team Members, I take full responseability and I try to reach out privatley to them to apologise.

In other words from all this unneccearly dramatic bullshit that I wrote: As time went on, My opinion shifted and having served relatively high punishment, I got to the point where I would never do what I did again.
Of course thats IF the person punished actually cares enough.

Another line in your post which I wanna mention, You said that people who are scared to cheat on thier main would just use alts and VPNs but that also slows down cheaters somewhat. Since now if you get caught cheating, The punishment is much much harsher, Its more risky to cheat now. Now its not as easy or relativly low risky anymore to cheat on your main, Inorder to cheat with much lower risk, You have to use a VPN and a ALT now which some people would just say "Nah, Its just not worth it". NOT all but it still lowers the number of cheaters. I cant help but compare this to prime MM in cs go, While its true that there are cheaters in prime, If you compare it to non-prime MM, The amount of cheaters in non-prime MM will far outweigh the amount of cheaters in prime MM.

I cannot disagree with you on the fact that Garrys mod itself is the huge issue. But with much stricter polcies, You can always change thier minds / Make people think twice before considering cheating. That might sound hard and harsh but people who want to use cheats and ruin the experience for others for thier personal benifts dont have "Nice" in thier vocabulary.