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TOPIC: Rule 2.1
Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313210
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" It is required to ask a player who killed an innocent why they did so"
This rule pretty much just lets a Traitor kill whoever they want and make themselves immune from KOS. I've done it a stupid number of times and there's nothing anyone can do about it. |
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313275
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No.
You missed out on the most important line of that rule: “ Without a justifiable, or believable reason they can be killed”. If they say something blatantly false, something you know didn’t happen whatsoever, or if they refuse to answer, you are allowed to kill them. This rule is there to stop the endless murder spree that used to happen almost every round, making the server much more fun for everyone present, staff included. |
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Last Edit: 3 years 2 months ago by Jim_Jam.
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313276
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I understand the reason for the rule being in place, it just doesn't work. By remembering a few valid KOS reasons you can essentially be invincible until someone who doesn't know about the rule just kills you anyway.
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313292
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"Um yeah I just killed him these three people within two minutes but they all just shot at me for no reason!"
Actually a shame of a rule. The amount of times I go into tester and slaughter 10 people under the pretense that "Someone shot at me and they all started fighting." is really disappointing. |
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Last Edit: 3 years 2 months ago by Darling.
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313295
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Jim_Jam wrote:
No. You missed out on the most important line of that rule: “ Without a justifiable, or believable reason they can be killed”. If they say something blatantly false, something you know didn’t happen whatsoever, or if they refuse to answer, you are allowed to kill them. This rule is there to stop the endless murder spree that used to happen almost every round, making the server much more fun for everyone present, staff included.
I mean nobody had a problem with how we handled it throughout 2017.2018 and 2019. I didnt understand why this rule was needed back then and as same as today. Everyone just says its that the "Deception" part of the game is being kept alive (or at least that is what I heard back then), but literally making it so that you have to believe him if it is a semi fine reason just takes away the peoples possibility to even see if it was a lie or not just in the fear of being slain because they have given a fine rule.
+ I gotta say I hardly saw those chain killings other than from people that knew each other and just wanted to have fun with each other, but hey I guess having fun on zarp was always not well received. ++ I mean the persons that introduced these rule barely to never played anyways sooooo I guess thats the reason why this dumb rule exists (without it even being announced to the users when it got released might I add) |
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Last Edit: 3 years 2 months ago by TheRealNepgear.
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313318
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TheRealNepgear wrote:
Jim_Jam wrote:
I’m pretty sure it was common decency that you don’t kill someone who was very obviously defending themselves or killing someone with justifiable reason, imo there was no need for the asking being part of the rules No. You missed out on the most important line of that rule: “ Without a justifiable, or believable reason they can be killed”. If they say something blatantly false, something you know didn’t happen whatsoever, or if they refuse to answer, you are allowed to kill them. This rule is there to stop the endless murder spree that used to happen almost every round, making the server much more fun for everyone present, staff included.
I mean nobody had a problem with how we handled it throughout 2017.2018 and 2019. I didnt understand why this rule was needed back then and as same as today. Everyone just says its that the "Deception" part of the game is being kept alive (or at least that is what I heard back then), but literally making it so that you have to believe him if it is a semi fine reason just takes away the peoples possibility to even see if it was a lie or not just in the fear of being slain because they have given a fine rule.
+ I gotta say I hardly saw those chain killings other than from people that knew each other and just wanted to have fun with each other, but hey I guess having fun on zarp was always not well received. ++ I mean the persons that introduced these rule barely to never played anyways sooooo I guess thats the reason why this dumb rule exists (without it even being announced to the users when it got released might I add) |
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Legendary Member  
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313321
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We need Matteo to come back and fix all these broken ass rules.
We went so long without anyone making a post about 2.1. It did so well. |
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✯✯ Former TTT Server Owner✯✯
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313329
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Just kill them, they'll report, you say "I didn't believe their reasoning" and I suppose just hope they don't have evidence proving that you're the only one chatting shit.
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Last Edit: 3 years 2 months ago by Boxy.
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313386
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You lot take what should be a simple TTT game far too seriously, just play it and stop worrying about the small print.
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313389
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I’d talk about the common sense rule but I’m well aware this is TTT, some of you take the rules to be some holy scripture and forget at the end of the day you are meant to decipher who the traitors are not letting someone commit genocide because that’s what it says in the rules.
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Last Edit: 3 years 2 months ago by maddox.
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313392
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If you play 5 rounds on the server I guarantee one of them will go like this:
You get shot You kill the person who shot you A third party kills you without questioning why you killed the first person. This is why the rule exists. Yes you may die cause you ask why but it's kinda easy to just put space between you and the gunfight and ask from there. |
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Steam Profile
Ex TTT admin x2 Ex Minecraft Admin Ex Surf Moderator Ex Deathrun Admin Ex SSRP Moderator x2 Ex Community Council member 
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313403
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Darling wrote:
"Um yeah I just killed him these three people within two minutes but they all just shot at me for no reason!"
Actually a shame of a rule. The amount of times I go into tester and slaughter 10 people under the pretense that "Someone shot at me and they all started fighting." is really disappointing.
Talk about brainless is when an innocent can straight up murder anyone with the reason "oh you killed an innocent no matter why" and not consider anything. Funny seeing maddox talking smack here though, I remember you as the one moderator that loophole rdmed every time you got the chance. You could consider that "taking the rules too seriously" as well.
How shitty or good of a rule 2.1 is really depends on how you enforce it. I personally never punish anyone if they call out the traitors bullshit lies, it is ridiculous that you would be forced to believe anything if just given a valid reason, even if it were not true. And now since we are talking about anecdotal experiences(for some reason) like nepgear here, I can say I witnessed these chain reactions often, some players would take advantage of the rule to perhaps kill a person they disliked. Back when I started playing on the server a couple of years ago and learned about this rule, I would too, take advantage of it. I would kill people for retaliating on rdming players. As the rule currently stands you're supposed to believe any valid excuse a killer gives, unless you are 100% certain that the given situation did not happen, it really should be changed so you could take a risk and not believe a traitors words and not get punished for doing so. I already enforce this rule in this way since I believe it improves the game mode and player experience, might not be what you're supposed to do but this is what I strongly believe.
P.S. Using the excuse "oh he killed an innocent" was just as strong as using "oh he tried to kill me" nowadays with the current 2.1
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Last Edit: 3 years 2 months ago by Gin.
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313417
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Gin wrote:
Darling wrote:
"Um yeah I just killed him these three people within two minutes but they all just shot at me for no reason!"
Actually a shame of a rule. The amount of times I go into tester and slaughter 10 people under the pretense that "Someone shot at me and they all started fighting." is really disappointing.
Talk about brainless is when an innocent can straight up murder anyone with the reason "oh you killed an innocent no matter why" and not consider anything. Funny seeing maddox talking smack here though, I remember you as the one moderator that loophole rdmed every time you got the chance. You could consider that "taking the rules too seriously" as well.
How shitty or good of a rule 2.1 is really depends on how you enforce it. I personally never punish anyone if they call out the traitors bullshit lies, it is ridiculous that you would be forced to believe anything if just given a valid reason, even if it were not true. And now since we are talking about anecdotal experiences(for some reason) like nepgear here, I can say I witnessed these chain reactions often, some players would take advantage of the rule to perhaps kill a person they disliked. Back when I started playing on the server a couple of years ago and learned about this rule, I would too, take advantage of it. I would kill people for retaliating on rdming players. As the rule currently stands you're supposed to believe any valid excuse a killer gives, unless you are 100% certain that the given situation did not happen, it really should be changed so you could take a risk and not believe a traitors words and not get punished for doing so. I already enforce this rule in this way since I believe it improves the game mode and player experience, might not be what you're supposed to do but this is what I strongly believe.
P.S. Using the excuse "oh he killed an innocent" was just as strong as using "oh he tried to kill me" nowadays with the current 2.1
For the first thing you said I rather have it this way than literally being forced to believe a bullshit reason as "oh that guy shot at someone a while ago and I wasnt close enough to kill him", just because of a dumb rule that forces me to.
Second what you are literally describing there is how the rule was back then and not how it is right now. Cause right now you first of all have and then wait some time to respond to you and if they give you a semi-good answer, as kindly provided by darling for example, you are just not allowed to kill them as this counts as RDM according to this rule. I know it wasnt perfect with the way it was before, you always had the chance to just be killed randomly because you were just acting in self defense, but realistically speaking you cant have both. Its either one or the other. We dont live in a perfect world were everyone agrees to be nice to each other, thats just not how things work. There are always gonna be people that want to be dicks and there are always gonna be people that are gonna be nice, but taking all of that in consideration I rather take the old rule back were I was running in danger of being killed for doing self defense, than not being able to kill somebody that is telling me utter bullshit just because you didnt happen to randomly follow this guy the entire fucking round. Third I dont know where the fuck you get the vibe from that I am talking about anecdotal experiences, cause most other people that were playing back then actually do agree with me (funny init?). I never said that random kill chains never happened, they did. Its just that the majority of the kill chains I have witnessed were just friends trolling each other. You cant prevent it with the old rule, yes, but it I still take that over this bs ngl. Fourth, I already said something to this in one of the other things, you cant make this rule perfect. The way you are enforcing it is how the old rule used to be (at least to some sorts). You either have this rule how it is right now, where you have to believe what is being told to you no matter how bullshit it seems for you or you take those chain killings and being killed while just defending yourself. I wish you could just have a middle ground, but sadly some humans just rather want to be the dick and kill you for defending yourself and having this rule in place how it is right now will just never let you have your own will to just freely decide to not believe anyone and kill them without having to be 100% certain that what they told you is bullshit. P.S. At least back then I was allowed to kill someone if I didnt believe this reason, unlike right now |
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313418
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I mean this rule is equally awful as it is incredibly valuable and there really isn't a way to change it without ruining the balance (at least in my opinion).
For one, 2.1 makes being traitor a looooot easier. My average T round consists of me shooting people in the head and saying they tried to shoot me so i can't be kosed for it. This is obviously not a good thing and it just adds to the whole "i know they're the traitor 100% but i don't have solid proof so it would be rdm" thing which plagues anyone who plays TTT. Yes, you can kill someone if they give a shit reason but when its as easy as going "oh yeah that guy tried to shoot me but missed" it's pretty impossible to find a discrepancy with what they're saying. Even if they give a flimsy excuse, its still very possible they'll report you for rdm and try to get you warned, and are you really going to take that risk? But at the same time, it's a sort of necessary evil. I mean i've played TTT for quite a bit personally and anyone who has played it for at least 5 minutes can tell you how much shit you go through with people rdming you because "he killed an innocent." As a staff member for around 4 months now, i've seen countless reports of people just going up to someone and shooting them in the head because they killed a mass rdmer and weren't given time to explain. If you take out rule 2.1 then what happens? If Little Timmy gets his right kneecap blown off by xxx_Kyle_xxx (completely random name) and is killed for getting revenge, what would you do? If you take out 2.1 then he's dead meat because he killed an innocent even though he didn't do anything to deserve a kos. So yes, this rule is complete and utter bullshit, but it's also one of the most important rules in the game. If you removed it, i can guarantee things would be worse off. |
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313436
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This is the kind of rule that just punishes people who follow it, you can't rely on it to get your through a T round because most players don't seem to know it exists and with new people joining every day there's no way to guarantee they will. The old system makes sense for the gamemode because the whole point in the game is trying to discover who the traitor is, if you know who the traitor is but can't kill them then what's the point.
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313458
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TheRealNepgear wrote:
Gin wrote:
Darling wrote:
"Um yeah I just killed him these three people within two minutes but they all just shot at me for no reason!"
Actually a shame of a rule. The amount of times I go into tester and slaughter 10 people under the pretense that "Someone shot at me and they all started fighting." is really disappointing.
Talk about brainless is when an innocent can straight up murder anyone with the reason "oh you killed an innocent no matter why" and not consider anything. Funny seeing maddox talking smack here though, I remember you as the one moderator that loophole rdmed every time you got the chance. You could consider that "taking the rules too seriously" as well.
How shitty or good of a rule 2.1 is really depends on how you enforce it. I personally never punish anyone if they call out the traitors bullshit lies, it is ridiculous that you would be forced to believe anything if just given a valid reason, even if it were not true. And now since we are talking about anecdotal experiences(for some reason) like nepgear here, I can say I witnessed these chain reactions often, some players would take advantage of the rule to perhaps kill a person they disliked. Back when I started playing on the server a couple of years ago and learned about this rule, I would too, take advantage of it. I would kill people for retaliating on rdming players. As the rule currently stands you're supposed to believe any valid excuse a killer gives, unless you are 100% certain that the given situation did not happen, it really should be changed so you could take a risk and not believe a traitors words and not get punished for doing so. I already enforce this rule in this way since I believe it improves the game mode and player experience, might not be what you're supposed to do but this is what I strongly believe.
P.S. Using the excuse "oh he killed an innocent" was just as strong as using "oh he tried to kill me" nowadays with the current 2.1
For the first thing you said I rather have it this way than literally being forced to believe a bullshit reason as "oh that guy shot at someone a while ago and I wasnt close enough to kill him", just because of a dumb rule that forces me to.
Second what you are literally describing there is how the rule was back then and not how it is right now. Cause right now you first of all have and then wait some time to respond to you and if they give you a semi-good answer, as kindly provided by darling for example, you are just not allowed to kill them as this counts as RDM according to this rule. I know it wasnt perfect with the way it was before, you always had the chance to just be killed randomly because you were just acting in self defense, but realistically speaking you cant have both. Its either one or the other. We dont live in a perfect world were everyone agrees to be nice to each other, thats just not how things work. There are always gonna be people that want to be dicks and there are always gonna be people that are gonna be nice, but taking all of that in consideration I rather take the old rule back were I was running in danger of being killed for doing self defense, than not being able to kill somebody that is telling me utter bullshit just because you didnt happen to randomly follow this guy the entire fucking round. Third I dont know where the fuck you get the vibe from that I am talking about anecdotal experiences, cause most other people that were playing back then actually do agree with me (funny init?). I never said that random kill chains never happened, they did. Its just that the majority of the kill chains I have witnessed were just friends trolling each other. You cant prevent it with the old rule, yes, but it I still take that over this bs ngl. Fourth, I already said something to this in one of the other things, you cant make this rule perfect. The way you are enforcing it is how the old rule used to be (at least to some sorts). You either have this rule how it is right now, where you have to believe what is being told to you no matter how bullshit it seems for you or you take those chain killings and being killed while just defending yourself. I wish you could just have a middle ground, but sadly some humans just rather want to be the dick and kill you for defending yourself and having this rule in place how it is right now will just never let you have your own will to just freely decide to not believe anyone and kill them without having to be 100% certain that what they told you is bullshit. P.S. At least back then I was allowed to kill someone if I didnt believe this reason, unlike right now
You are very much correct in this whole post. Both versions have their ups and downs, but all this really comes down to preference. I'd rather have this version over the mass killings. What they really should do is add a bit where it is optional to believe the culprit or not and punish according to what happened. If the culprit was indeed lying and you deduced it, you won't get punished. If the culprit had a valid reason and gets killed it's RDM. The argument that the people who side with this rule change often give is "it's TTT, deception is a big part of it" but you really can't have deception without deduction, it's just bullshit without the other.
+ I gotta say I hardly saw those chain killings other than from people that knew each other and just wanted to have fun with each other, but hey I guess having fun on zarp was always not well received. Here you are very clearly talking about anecdotal experiences. |
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313484
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You dont have to believe them everytime but at least have a reason not to believe them.
IE "I killed them cus he shot me" yet the guy has green health then kill him. Its unlikely that he got shot and only took 19 damage. Just allowing people to say "I didnt believe him" removes the point of the rule. If you are certain that someone is a traitor then kill them. The rule doesnt prevent you from doing it. As long as you can back up why you was certain then its fine. Henny wrote this rule and I still cant think of how it can be worded any better. By all means someone take a stab at making it more clear. But it's fine. It's been so long since it was brought up. |
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✯✯ Former TTT Server Owner✯✯
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313496
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Nay wrote:
You dont have to believe them everytime but at least have a reason not to believe them. Except the rule doesn't work that way. The staff team doesn't look at the rule like this and when I asked mattors, who claimed to be the one to write the rule told me that you have to believe their excuse unless you can prove that they are lying. (For example if you followed them from the start and can be 100% sure)IE "I killed them cus he shot me" yet the guy has green health then kill him. Its unlikely that he got shot and only took 19 damage. Just allowing people to say "I didnt believe him" removes the point of the rule. If you are certain that someone is a traitor then kill them. The rule doesnt prevent you from doing it. As long as you can back up why you was certain then its fine. Henny wrote this rule and I still cant think of how it can be worded any better. By all means someone take a stab at making it more clear. But it's fine. It's been so long since it was brought up. If you're referring to my post here I don't really know how the fuck you misunderstood what I said but I never said not believing could be a way to get off the hook. What I meant is pretty much what you stated here. There must've been an error in communication since if Henny saw it in this light and the staff team is using it in a whole different way. It's retarded, but these cases with certainty but no proof fall under the category "killing based on suspicion" in most admins/mods eyes and stir all this shit people have been complaining about. Even though the rules are supposed to be guidelines to follow most people(staff) take them literally and remove a part of the TTT experience along with it |
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313499
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Gin wrote:
Nay wrote:
You dont have to believe them everytime but at least have a reason not to believe them. Except the rule doesn't work that way. The staff team doesn't look at the rule like this and when I asked mattors, who claimed to be the one to write the rule told me that you have to believe their excuse unless you can prove that they are lying. (For example if you followed them from the start and can be 100% sure)IE "I killed them cus he shot me" yet the guy has green health then kill him. Its unlikely that he got shot and only took 19 damage. Just allowing people to say "I didnt believe him" removes the point of the rule. If you are certain that someone is a traitor then kill them. The rule doesnt prevent you from doing it. As long as you can back up why you was certain then its fine. Henny wrote this rule and I still cant think of how it can be worded any better. By all means someone take a stab at making it more clear. But it's fine. It's been so long since it was brought up. If you're referring to my post here I don't really know how the fuck you misunderstood what I said but I never said not believing could be a way to get off the hook. What I meant is pretty much what you stated here. There must've been an error in communication since if Henny saw it in this light and the staff team is using it in a whole different way. It's retarded, but these cases with certainty but no proof fall under the category "killing based on suspicion" in most admins/mods eyes and stir all this shit people have been complaining about. Even though the rules are supposed to be guidelines to follow most people(staff) take them literally and remove a part of the TTT experience along with it Henny wrote that rule. Mattors may have tweaked it but I also tweaked it I think xnator did some tweaks but it was pretty much what Henny wrote with darling somewhere involved. And it was never intended for the players to have to believe their reason I didnt refer to what you put. The "just dont believe them" is something that mattors wanted to add to the rule and I've seen it used recently. |
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✯✯ Former TTT Server Owner✯✯
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Rule 2.1 3 years 2 months ago #1313501
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ok but what about throwing nades in the traitor room?
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♠ Ex-TTT Head Administrator ♠
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