TOPIC: [All Servers] Provide/Improve App. Denial Reasons

_{Disclaimer Yes, its another one of these suggestions! All things considered, I'll keep putting in the effort to make these as they, at least in our eyes might be helpful to people in the future. In this suggestion, we're speaking of both Lead Team applications for each of the servers as well as the applications on the forums and ts/discord. Though this suggestion may be less so important towards LT applications I felt I had to include them as well.}

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This section will be split into three subsections. Normal Applications, Lead Team Applications and Discord/TS/Forums Applications. This suggestion was made with things we've witnessed in mind and each of the subsections has their own reasons as to why this suggestion applies to them and why we think it would be better for the denial reasons to be implemented and or improved.

Now I do understand that the person who replies to applications (when they are replied too) takes information that they hear during the discussion of the candidate and write a post with a reason based on what they heard/remembered (there have been situations where I forgot a denial reason and had to ask again just to double-check before replying to a post) and that they do this besides voting and whatever other duty they have during the meeting, however, this method is flawed and I'll go more into detail about it later.

When someone is applying for moderator and or administrator they are provided with a reason for their denial when they are not accepted within the meeting. This provides them with vital information on what they need to improve and how to best go about it. This allows them to better themselves and make sure that next time they apply they can improve their chances of getting accepted.

However, for this one specifically, we want to push for an improvement on the denial reasons. We've seen it happen that denial reasons have been inaccurate, incomplete and otherwise have proven not to be helpful towards the person that wishes to get themselves promoted. I'd love to see a change made so that people get a list of what is good, and bad about what they do instead of an (in most cases) singular reason as to why they were denied.

Let us take a situation in which Administrator Applicant Luigi applied for admin. He had great activity, as per shown in the chart below, but, his F1 count wasn't so good. When he was denied the promotion to administrator initially he had this reason on his application:
However, upon looking at his game trackers and double-checking something which, to be honest, staff should do in general when checking over an application I found a level of activity that is not only consistent but actually great based on how many things he has to do including him having a job on the side.

When I later commented on the denial reason asking why he was denied for the inconsistent activity it was made clear that, that was not the actual reason for his denial and that his actual reason was more so to do with the low F1 count that he had handled at the time, however, that is the root of the problem.

When someone is willing to stick the time into getting themselves promoted to help the server further, I feel that the least people could do is give him an accurate description of what he has to improve upon rather than an inaccurate reason which tells him to improve something that he was doing fine with already.

Yes, feedback is provided by people onto applications, however, I barely ever (except for some rare cases) see staff reply with legitimate concerns that they have, so outside of going out of your way to ask some people their opinions about you, the outcome on your application is the best source of info about your denial that you have, something which I feel should at least be accurate if not more extensive on what has been said.

I'm not requesting we add who said what, rather that we have a complete and comprehensive list of what was discussed and what they may improve upon. In Luigi's case I'd personally have put a reason as such:That way he knows that some may feel his playtime isn't good enough (assuming that was said due to the initial denial reason) and he knows that his report count is low.

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The next one might be a bit controversial. But ever since Lead team applications had been introduced back when I was still a Head Administrator we made it a habit never to give a reply as to why someone was denied. Rather we forced applicants to contact the respective LT members of the correct rank to ask feedback on what has to be improved and what they feel the person might need to get their promotion, however, there is a flaw in this system as well, one that I wish to point out.

Yes, you can approach each of the staff members but even then you may end up with an incomplete or inaccurate answer, I feel that just as with the staff applications above those who wish to proceed further up the ranks should be provided with the complete list of information on what they can improve, what they did wrong and what they should do to get a better chance at getting promoted in the future.

Even if they are never accepted for the promotion in the future, it still grants them a list of things that they can do to improve themselves which means that they will be better able to contribute to the server in the future.

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And last but not least. Forums, TS, and Discord. When you apply for these "servers" you must do so when the applications are open which is something which they aren't all the time. And when people apply for these positions sometimes the positions aren't even filled which really leaves me to question why they are opened in the first place.

People who apply for these "servers" are left entirely in the dark as to why others are chosen over them or why the positions they applied for aren't even filled and although I get that those meetings are a bit more chaotic. I feel that just like any other application these applications should have a denial reason, people are putting the time into writing an application and are clearly willing to help out by filling those positions. And I feel that the least people can do is provide a list of what they may improve on.

Just as with any other server one might be applying for, it ought to be nice to have a list of things one can improve on. I try my best to provide at least forum applicants with a list of things that I think they can improve upon and I'd like to think that those at least help the people moving forward when they wish to obtain a certain rank.

But, I am just a user, I cannot say for certain what people are looking for and even when some have reasons for denial that back in the day would've to lead to them never being accepted some people seem to be able to slip through the cracks today which means that the standards of being accepted really have changed.

These changes are good, it means that the community is adapting to the changes its services are experiencing. However, they also leave questions as to what someone has to do to get promoted and leaves applicants in the dark as ever. I honestly do wonder why Pengu, for example, wasn't selected to become a Discord/TS Head Admin, the support on his app was great and he seemed to be a prime candidate, yet he was not promoted. I'm unsure if he asked, but I for one would've loved to know why and what he could've improved upon further to increase his chances towards getting promoted. As I had said before, Discord especially seems to really need the extra help.

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Many questions have been pulled open yet few have been answered. If Discord is really in anarchy and needs staff why are those applying for staff getting denied? If sections need more staff to help with them why are those who apply for it not filling the open spots? Are the candidates not good enough? Are you looking for someone in particular? Why is someone who works their ass off to get a promotion to Super Admin not getting it? Are they not active enough in meetings? Are they not liked enough by the LT? Are they not handling enough reports?

We honestly will never know unless we provide some level of response to apps of all sorts. I feel that getting denied for Moderator or Admin is a learning experience, it tells you what you did wrong, it tells you what to improve on and how best to do it. Yet, all these positions, forums, ts, discord, super admin, head admin leave you questioning what it is that you did wrong, what you didn't do well enough.

These questions will make people doubt themselves, wonder what it is that they can improve. Some may be too shy to ask, others just can't bear it. some people may be impossible to reach. And some may feel resentment to those denying them causing them not to ask. The questions may cause certain staff to do things they usually wouldn't have, to perform worse, leading down to an endless spiral.

Its time to cut it short, give the reasons. It really isn't that hard. Make an environment in which people can develop themselves rather than them having to run around and ask or beg for answers as to what they have to do to improve. They could be spending the time spent on asking, on actually improving if we'd all just take the two minutes it takes to write a proper reason on each application we can all work together on improving the community together.

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The only potential issue that I can see is that those who apply for LT have one less way to show that they truly want to get promoted by asking those who can vote on it for their opinion and feedback. Though really this strikes me as no big deal as there are plenty of other ways to show how dedicated they are for the job.

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[TTT person here]
Yesterday i looked through all TTT SA apps from earlier then 4 months and a few days old.
I found that by looking through the apps and the feedback left by users, mods, admins, SAs and HAs.
I could list atleast a few unofficial reasons as for why the applicant was denied or accepted.
(I say 'unofficial' because as you say they dont tell you 'directly'. And these are basicly reasons i have made up)
I could list a few of the most common unofficial reasons of denied apps:
"Not standing out"/"There are better candidates", "Low activity (In-game, Forums, TeamSpeak, Discord)", "Low report count", "Bad attitude", "Recent nonprofessional handling of in-game reports/punishment appeals."
Basicly the applicant didn't "go above and beyond" to deserve the promotion.

Kemi wrote: I feel like I do a pretty good job keeping it friendly and helpful to players!

Anyway, if I understood this correctly, then

The denial reasons definitely need to be improved to help people understand without them having to ask around. As as for LT I feel as though they should add denial reasons to help out the admin.

You really need to add a TL:DR. I don't agree with certain points like the lead team part, I believe interacting with lead team members is a key component to becoming a lead team member yourself so you should be able to easily get feedback that way. Overall

Nick0GR wrote:
I mean, make no mistake, being friends with the lead team/staff is the main way to get promoted for ANY role. It has very little to do with how objectively good or bad you may be as a staff member. I know this from when I was staff and was only promoted once I made friends with staff members, despite the fact my playtime, etc. had dropped considerably from that point. It's actually very easy to become any staff role you want if you're willing to sell your 'soul' for that purpose.
As for the actual post itself, I agree with it. People are VOLUNTEERING to help this server out, and they get NOTHING in return, if anything they LOSE things such as the time they're able to spend simply playing. They deserve to get proper comprehensive reasons for denial when it occurs.

Justice wrote:
I never once mentioned being friends with the lead team, there is a difference between being friends with the lead team and being able to communicate with them on a regular basis. I'll give you the specific example of me on bhop currently, I wouldn't necessarily call my relationship with either onion or sally as "friends", yet I still manage to communicate with them on almost a daily basis and I also have shown my willingness to improve the server, if I get it, I get it. If I don't I'm not going to start trying to befriend them to "gain" their vote because that wouldn't work either.

Nick0GR wrote:
I never said there wasn't a difference, but what I said was right and would greatly improve your chances over not doing so. Best of luck regardless with what you're trying to do.

ok but you can ask for a more detailed reason and you'd get one

Tow Mater wrote: That's if you don't get ignored more than half the time

Tow Mater wrote:
when does that ever happen ?

Justice wrote: bruh, you need 2 weeks of consistent activity for mod

Blueperson wrote: unfortunate, play better.

MichaeI wrote: well if apparently it doesn't why would they bother giving you one on the thread

I asked for advice numerous times when going for SA, I asked around for advice and I got Chute saying I was ready, and Honest saying I should "stand out more" (then I got demoted on the week of 70+ f1s and multiple forum reports handled.) I would appreciate a better denial reason, especially for Lead Team apps.

Edit: Niko said stuff in dms aswell, just remembered, but it would be easier for it to be generally said on the post.

Nick0GR wrote: TL:DR's are for NERDS that are too lazy to read unnecessarily large essays

On a serious note, this is a very well-written suggestion, it definitely wouldn't hurt having more detailed denial reasons. However, as Tow Mater said, there isn't a need to write an essay in their denial reason, if a denial reason such as "Needs more activity" wasn't very clear and satisfying to the person applying, they could simply ask for a more detailed one!

Regarding being ignored and not receiving a well-explained denial reason, I will say that the max amount of time it would take for a staff member (preferrably lead team, obviously) to respond to an applicant's need for a better denial reason would be a day or not even that. Besides, there is always other staff that are available, so being ignored isn't a thing*.

*Disclaimer : I am referring to TTT solely, so don't take my comment too seriously, other servers have other staff.

I dont believe that we should be giving people who apply for lead team a big detailed list of things that they need to improve on. I prefer to give them a push in the right direction but not a massive detailed list of denial reasons. If you are going to be accepted for a lead team position then you have to be able to take the initiative, part of this would include knowing your weaknesses and how they can be improved upon, and part of it would be to ask those that are voting for you not having great detailed feedback handed to you.

When applying for lead team you shouldnt go at it with the attitude of "They have no reason to deny me" but with "How can I benefit the lead team"

When applicants have come to me with feedback ive given them areas for improvement but mainly a point in the right direction as I want to see if they can work it out for themselves, if they can then they are showing that they are a good candidate. I may even say that im not going to provide any feedback as i want to see if they can take the initiative and not have the LT hold their hand through it.

Same goes for discord staff, if you want feedback then ask me for it.

Darling wrote: ok "TTT Admin"

Luki_Guki wrote: