---

---

Coming into this suggestion I sat down and took the time to fully read about the issue that Firelord Ozai presented. What he thought was wrong and why he thinks a change should be made. At the time I agreed with his statements and I still at the moment of writing this.

I happened to know that some people can be very good at missing obvious details and I knew of a story that I could use as an example about why the rule is flawed. I worked it out, told the story then made an attempt to explain why I thought the rule had its flaws and why it should be changed.

There are some things I may miss, and there are a couple of details that I don't know about and I'll do my best as always to make things as clear as possible, I wouldn't wanna mislead anyone or misquote something. If something is misquoted or a mistake was made people are free to point those out.

It seems I had missed my mark in making clear that it was merely an example. Some people seem to have gotten a tad bit touchy about my last reply and my apologies if it upset anyone, however, as I will explain below the Among Us comparison served as no more but an example of people being blind on occasion, something that was part of my argument then, and still it is now. And yes, for the record I am aware of the differences.

I will be taking Davido007's comment and disassemble it piece by piece. It seems there are some misconceptions that I'd like to clear up before making a second attempt at expressing my thoughts about the issue.

---

---

I'm sorry to disappoint, however, to set a level playing field, yes I do know the rules in TTT and yes I have played plenty of it before. I usually actually have some level of knowledge of what I'm talking about and if I do not I'll do my best to do research into it before writing my posts.
_{All things aside I make it clear that I put effort into what I do. I don't just randomly ramble on, I actually think about what I write and take into consideration the info I have and the info I do not have. I did not deem it necessary to place a disclaimer about the missing info as I thought it unnecessary in the presented situation.}

---

I do agree! Perhaps my method of writing wasn't clear enough, I in no way meant to compare TTT to Among Us as a whole, I intended to state clearly that within one game (Among Us) the contrast of the playing field is much greater than in TTT. In Among Us we're dealing with brightly coloured heavily upscaled assets which stand out pretty much everywhere.

Whilst in TTT the bodies are usually smaller you might see only a single foot which can be missed or colours might blend in very well together giving a natural feeling to what is on your screen. Possibly leading to you not noticing a body. Granted, I don't know how different it may be now compared to years ago, however, I can imagine that would extend to some people in ZARP have missed plenty of bodies before.

---

TTT is vastly different from Among Us, but as I stated above I never meant to compare the two directly. The two share a situation (failing to identify/report a body). And it served to state that in one game the bodies are much harder to miss than in the other - if someone is capable of missing a body in a game where sprites are huge, and colours contrast very well then they can miss a much smaller corpse that can be hidden, and or one that more easily blends in with the environment.

---

I hate to burst your bubble, but you'd be surprised how many people don't do this. (it is A LOT) But! That is their own fault. I'm not gonna sit here and defend those kinds of people, it is a choice each individual makes at the start of their journey into a server.

And yeah! You are totally right. A quick search shows plenty of threads about how to play and I'm sure that when it comes down to it that a person who plays on TTT would not mind sitting down with a new player and go over them and explain to them how to play. That is great!

I never claimed nor intended to claim that people don't identify because they don't know that they should - I wrote what I did with the idea in mind that newbies and veterans alike can experience these things too. I write my things deliberately and make sure that things (at least in my eyes) make some level of sense.
_{If you did not somehow pull that argument from my comment then think about where you put things, contextually wise it reads as if you were claiming I said it}

---

I had more written here but decided to reformat it so that it makes more sense based on what I wrote above. The server reminds people and that is a great thing, it makes sure that people know what is accessible and yeah I do agree there's more than enough insight. I had stated as such in the paragraph above, however, that's not the whole point.

While I agree the player is to blame for not reporting a body it is different in my eyes when they did not see the body they should've reported. Some people miss out the most obvious of things and the rule as it stands can be used to KOS that person, I'll go into more detail about why this may be a problem later.

---

---

Time for a little experiment, I'll be giving you two scenarios which are spoiler quite similar. I'd love for those who are against (or for) the rule change to answer these questions to themselves. These scenarios are just there to see what you would do in the shoes of both the victim and the perpetrator in the event his suggestion seeks to avoid. All choices (except the 4th in each) have a spoiler attached with a comment on each of the options explaining how I feel about them. They are my opinion, however, so feel free to disregard those.

1. You'll accept the KOS and die for something you did not see at all, based on accusations from Player A who has no way to verify whether or not you had seen it to begin with.
   Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ][ Click to hide ]

   I respect it. A lot of players don't feel that way though, especially on repeat occasions, have it happen to you more than once and you'll start to get annoyed too.
2. Protest in (voice) chat about not seeing the corpse with no way to prove you are right without presenting evidence.
   Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ][ Click to hide ]

   You still have a KOS called on you, there is no way to verify who is right and who is wrong.
3. Warn Player A for falsely KOSing you.
   Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ][ Click to hide ]

   Now now... if what was stated up to this point by other people holds true you not seeing the body is your fault. No, warning the player would be warning them for 'your mistake' see the issue with that standpoint?
4. Other: Please do specify, I'd honestly love to know

---

1. Are you just supposed to call out a KOS on Player A even though the body was never even in his line of sight?
   Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ][ Click to hide ]

   Does that mean is he supposed to stare into every nook and cranny like a paranoid person whilst trying to get himself tested? (If you do not find yourself doing this already then its unfair to expect it from others)
2. Are you supposed to ask Player A if he saw it?
   Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ][ Click to hide ]

   How are we sure they are not lying? What's the point of asking this in the first place...
3. Are you supposed to NOT KOS Player A for a lack of essential information?
   Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ][ Click to hide ]

   This one makes the most sense to me if I were to lack the info I'd avoid calling a KOS. but then again we might thank that way but those with malicious intent will not be so 'kind'
4. Other, please elaborate.

---

Way I see it: People appear to be abusing the rule in its current state and this should not be possible. A change has to be made. Any person that leaves the server never to come back because people are loopholing is a loss for the server which no one would want to happen.

I feel that changing the rule, however, maybe a bit complicated looking into it further and reading into the points that some others presented. I feel that a possible better solution would be to add a log that involves eye tracers. If a person looks at a body that is unidentified that should be logged so that staff have a tool to see whether or not someone genuinely did not see a body or whether a player is calling KOS-es just to have an excuse to RDM.

To be most fair that tracer should be delayed until they have looked at it for at least half a second, it should not log more than once (it'll spam it if does), only log if they are close enough to see the 'unidentified corpse' text appear, and it should state whether or not it was identified by them afterwards.

It may not be a foolproof solution but anything to help would be nice to have I imagine. This issue is clearly a real issue if someone is willing to write a suggestion over it to change it. It is a way to bring to attention the problem you face and you shouldn't try to shove it off, rather try to help resolve it.

The thing I put above here (the log) is merely a suggestion on how it could be done, but the TTT Staff Team must have some inventive people than myself who can come up with way betters solutions for the problem. Just keep in mind I'm not your enemy here, I merely am trying to press on how much of an issue this can be and am trying to help avoid it from becoming a big issue.

---

1. The player models can be brightly coloured thanks to pointshop (to be better, or less visible).
2. I've only given a specific scenario in which the body wasn't visible to one party. Yes, there are occasions where people may be standing on top of or passing by a corpse by walking over it in which case there's no way to deny the fact that they could've seen and then I'd agree and put the blame with them
   • But if a report is made: there's no way for staff to verify which scenario happened. Unless they happened to have been spectating and or there's a video, but staff may not always be spectating people in the right moment, nor may people be able to record.
3. The Minecraft map has many different colours which are vibrant, easing up visibility in some cases though making it harder in others
4. the Minecraft Map is relatively small, missing bodies isn't super easy, though still possible.

---

---

I really did not think this would get the type of response it ended up getting. It is clear that the way I wrote things wasn't clear enough to some people and I'll do my best to avoid such misunderstandings from occurring in the future. My apologies to those who found themselves feeling offended by what I had written, I understand TTT is important to some and that there's plenty of people that put a lot of effort into it.

My post had the intent of showing my support, acknowledging the problem to exist and to clarify that missing bodies does happen. I failed to write it in such a way that it the task of sending a bolt forward, to attempt to elaborate on how this is a pressing issue that needs attention quickly and that it might be an issue that can cause big problems later down the line if it is not addressed soon. I hope this post did a better job at that least.

Kemi

---

_{Disclaimer: I have no scope of what is logged and what is not, I'm unaware of exactly what tools the staff have in their arsenal and it is coming from someone who is not active in TTT. Take my statements with a grain of salt if you must but they are still intended well.
Trivia: Writing this took about 5 hours, 2.8k words and 15k characters and 4 drafts.}
.

----- [center][size=4][b]Regarding the Earlier Reply[/b][/size][/center] ----- [center] [ [ Spoiler removed to avoid redundancy ] ] [/center] Coming into this suggestion I sat down and took the time to fully read about the issue that Firelord Ozai presented. What he thought was wrong and why he thinks a change should be made. At the time I agreed with his statements and I still at the moment of writing this. I happened to know that some people can be very good at missing obvious details and I knew of a story that I could use as an example about why the rule is flawed. I worked it out, told the story then made an attempt to explain why I thought the rule had its flaws and why it should be changed. There are some things I may miss, and there are a couple of details that I don't know about and I'll do my best as always to make things as clear as possible, I wouldn't wanna mislead anyone or misquote something. If something is misquoted or a mistake was made people are free to point those out. It seems I had missed my mark in making clear that it was merely an example. Some people seem to have gotten a tad bit touchy about my last reply and my apologies if it upset anyone, however, as I will explain below the Among Us comparison served as no more but an example of people being blind on occasion, something that was part of my argument then, and still it is now. And yes, for the record I am aware of the differences. I will be taking Davido007's comment and disassemble it piece by piece. It seems there are some misconceptions that I'd like to clear up before making a second attempt at expressing my thoughts about the issue. ----- [center][size=4][b]Clarification (Disassembly of Davidov's Comment)[/b][/size][/center] ----- [quote]From reading your comment, it is quite obvious to tell that you do not have knowledge of the rules, or TTT at all, which I didn't expect coming from you, considering your comments are usually well-written.[/quote] I'm sorry to disappoint, however, to set a level playing field, yes I do know the rules in TTT and yes I have played plenty of it before. I usually actually have some level of knowledge of what I'm talking about and if I do not I'll do my best to do research into it before writing my posts. [sub]All things aside I make it clear that I put effort into what I do. I don't just randomly ramble on, I actually think about what I write and take into consideration the info I have and the info I do not have. I did not deem it necessary to place a disclaimer about the missing info as I thought it unnecessary in the presented situation. [/sub] ----- [quote]The flaw of your argument, as Nepgear mentioned, comes from the fact that you're comparing a chaotic clusterfuck of a "murder-game", Among Us, to a very well-refined and old Garry's Mod gamemode, TTT, which has many, [i]many[/i] different situations, rules and laws, one of which is the fact that walking over an unidentified body gets you shot.[/quote] I do agree! Perhaps my method of writing wasn't clear enough, I in no way meant to compare TTT to Among Us as a whole, I intended to state [b]clearly[/b] that within one game (Among Us) the contrast of the playing field is much greater than in TTT. In Among Us we're dealing with brightly coloured heavily upscaled assets which stand out pretty much everywhere. Whilst in TTT the bodies are usually smaller you might see only a single foot which can be missed or colours might blend in very well together giving a natural feeling to what is on your screen. Possibly leading to you not noticing a body. Granted, I don't know how different it may be now compared to years ago, however, I can imagine that would extend to some people in ZARP have missed plenty of bodies before. ----- [quote]Among Us is a party game without any real rules, its focus is trying to figure out what the hell is going on and it is [b]vastly[/b] different from TTT. Of course, there will be people that stand on a corpse, not reporting it, ending up in them getting thrown out, probably upsetting them (and instantly leaving, as everyone does). Well, why does this happen? Because they're new, and there's literally no official information about how you're meant to play, as the playstyle comes from the player base itself from unspoken rules.[/quote] TTT [b]is[/b] vastly different from Among Us, but as I stated above I never meant to compare the two directly. The two share a situation (failing to identify/report a body). And it served to state that in one game the bodies are much harder to miss than in the other - if someone is capable of missing a body in a game where sprites are huge, and colours contrast very well then they can miss a much smaller corpse that can be hidden, and or one that more easily blends in with the environment. [center][b]Point[/b] There will always be people that miss the obvious even if the answer is right in front of them. [/center] ----- [quote]TTT, on the other hand, has pages of rules, information threads and so on. It is a completely invalid and weak argument that "a new player might pass an unidentified body without knowing they'll get killed for it", as the very first thing you should do when joining a gamemode/server you're unfamiliar with (I'm sure this is known to be true globally), is [b]read the rules[/b].[/quote] I hate to burst your bubble, but you'd be surprised how many people don't do this. (it is [b]A LOT[/b]) But! That is their own fault. I'm not gonna sit here and defend those kinds of people, it is a choice each individual makes at the start of their journey into a server. And yeah! You are totally right. A quick search shows plenty of threads about how to play and I'm sure that when it comes down to it that a person who plays on TTT would not mind sitting down with a new player and go over them and explain to them how to play. That is great! [center][b]Though I'm unsure where this came from[b][/center] [quote][center]"a new player might pass an unidentified body without knowing they'll get killed for it"[/center][/quote] I never claimed nor intended to claim that people don't identify because they don't know that they should - I wrote what I did with the idea in mind that newbies and veterans alike can experience these things too. I write my things deliberately and make sure that things (at least in my eyes) make some level of sense. [sub]If you did not somehow pull that argument from my comment then think about where you put things, contextually wise it reads as if you were claiming I said it[/sub] ----- [quote]...the server constantly reminds players in the text chat about the rules, which they can access via "!rules". Doing so would have given them plenty of insight on what gets them KOSed and what doesn't. It is, indeed, the player's fault if they fail to do a very basic and simple action, which is identifying bodies.[/quote] I had more written here but decided to reformat it so that it makes more sense based on what I wrote above. The server reminds people and that is a great thing, it makes sure that people know what is accessible and yeah I do agree there's more than enough insight. I had stated as such in the paragraph above, however, that's not the whole point. While I agree the player is to blame for not reporting a body it is different in my eyes when they did not see the body they should've reported. Some people miss out the most obvious of things and the rule as it stands can be used to KOS that person, I'll go into more detail about why this may be a problem later. ----- [center][size=4][b]With that Aside Now on Topic[/b][/size][/center] ------ Time for a little experiment, I'll be giving you two scenarios which are [i]spoiler[/i] quite similar. I'd love for those who are against (or for) the rule change to answer these questions to themselves. These scenarios are just there to see what you would do in the shoes of both the victim and the perpetrator in the event his suggestion seeks to avoid. All choices (except the 4th in each) have a spoiler attached with a comment on each of the options explaining how I feel about them. They are my opinion, however, so feel free to disregard those. [center][b]Let's review with this Situation:[/b] [i]Player A sees you move past a corpse that from your point of view you can not even see, whether it be a missing model, be hidden behind a tree, or just out of your field of view, and he calls a KOS on you for failure to identify a body.[/i][/center] [center][b]What is your response?[/center] [ol] [li]You'll accept the KOS and die for something you did not see at all, based on accusations from Player A who has no way to verify whether or not you had seen it to begin with. [ul][spoiler]I respect it. A lot of players don't feel that way though, especially on repeat occasions, have it happen to you more than once and you'll start to get annoyed too.[/spoiler][/ul] [/li] [li]Protest in (voice) chat about not seeing the corpse with no way to prove you are right without presenting evidence. [ul][spoiler]You still have a KOS called on you, there is no way to verify who is right and who is wrong.[/spoiler][/ul] [/li] [li]Warn Player A for falsely KOSing you. [ul][spoiler]Now now... if what was stated up to this point by other people holds true you not seeing the body is your fault. No, warning the player would be warning them for 'your mistake' see the issue with that standpoint?[/spoiler][/ul] [/li] [li]Other: Please do specify, I'd honestly love to know[/li] [/ol] ----- [center][b]What does a player need to do in the following situation?[/b][/center] [center][i]Player A was to walk towards the tester passing by a body on the way that was behind a tree in such a way they didn't see it. And you happened to witness that from a different angle, one where you think he could see the body and see him pass by.[/i][/center] [ol] [li] Are you just supposed to call out a KOS on Player A even though the body was never even in his line of sight? [ul][spoiler]Does that mean is he supposed to stare into every nook and cranny like a paranoid person whilst trying to get himself tested? (If you do not find yourself doing this already then its unfair to expect it from others)[/spoiler][/ul][/li] [li]Are you supposed to ask Player A if he saw it? [ul][spoiler]How are we sure they are not lying? What's the point of asking this in the first place...[/spoiler][/ul][/li] [li]Are you supposed to NOT KOS Player A for a lack of essential information? [ul][spoiler]This one makes the most sense to me if I were to lack the info I'd avoid calling a KOS. but then again we might thank that way but those with malicious intent will not be so 'kind'[/spoiler][/ul][/li] [li]Other, please elaborate.[/li] ----- [b]Way I see it[/b]: People appear to be abusing the rule in its current state and this should not be possible. A change has to be made. Any person that leaves the server never to come back because people are loopholing is a loss for the server which no one would want to happen. I feel that changing the rule, however, maybe a bit complicated looking into it further and reading into the points that some others presented. I feel that a possible better solution would be to add a log that involves eye tracers. If a person looks at a body that is unidentified that should be logged so that staff have a tool to see whether or not someone genuinely did not see a body or whether a player is calling KOS-es just to have an excuse to RDM. To be most fair that tracer should be delayed until they have looked at it for at least half a second, it should not log more than once (it'll spam it if does), only log if they are close enough to see the 'unidentified corpse' text appear, and it should state whether or not it was identified by them afterwards. It may not be a foolproof solution but anything to help would be nice to have I imagine. This issue is clearly a real issue if someone is willing to write a suggestion over it to change it. It is a way to bring to attention the problem you face and you shouldn't try to shove it off, rather try to help resolve it. The thing I put above here (the log) is merely a suggestion on how it could be done, but the TTT Staff Team must have some inventive people than myself who can come up with way betters solutions for the problem. Just keep in mind I'm not your enemy here, I merely am trying to press on how much of an issue this can be and am trying to help avoid it from becoming a big issue. ----- [center][b]Counterpoints[/b] [i]Whilst looking at this from both perspectives I can see points that would stand against the rule change, though they may be against what I would prefer to happen I'll still point some of them out in the interest of fairness.[/center] [ol] [li]The player models can be brightly coloured thanks to pointshop (to be better, or less visible).[/li] [li]I've only given a specific scenario in which the body wasn't visible to one party. Yes, there are occasions where people may be standing on top of or passing by a corpse by walking over it in which case there's no way to deny the fact that they could've seen and then I'd agree and put the blame with them[ul][li]But if a report is made: there's no way for staff to verify which scenario happened. Unless they happened to have been spectating and or there's a video, but staff may not always be spectating people in the right moment, nor may people be able to record.[/li][/ul][/li] [li]The Minecraft map has many different colours which are vibrant, easing up visibility in some cases though making it harder in others[/li] [li]the Minecraft Map is relatively small, missing bodies isn't super easy, though still possible.[/li] [/ol] ----- [center][size=4][b]Final Message[/b][/size][/center] ----- I really did not think this would get the type of response it ended up getting. It is clear that the way I wrote things wasn't clear enough to some people and I'll do my best to avoid such misunderstandings from occurring in the future. My apologies to those who found themselves feeling offended by what I had written, I understand TTT is important to some and that there's plenty of people that put a lot of effort into it. My post had the intent of showing my support, acknowledging the problem to exist and to clarify that missing bodies does happen. I failed to write it in such a way that it the task of sending a bolt forward, to attempt to elaborate on how this is a pressing issue that needs attention quickly and that it might be an issue that can cause big problems later down the line if it is not addressed soon. I hope this post did a better job at that least. [color=royalblue]Kemi[/color] ----- [sub][b]Disclaimer: [/b] I have no scope of what is logged and what is not, I'm unaware of exactly what tools the staff have in their arsenal and it is coming from someone who is not active in TTT. Take my statements with a grain of salt if you must but they are still intended well. [b]Trivia:[/b] Writing this took about 5 hours, 2.8k words and 15k characters and 4 drafts.[/sub] .