TOPIC: TTT is broken.

Vakarian wrote: Thats not what the issue here is at all as it turns out. Obviously if someone comes on and starts mass rdming they will get banned for RDM. The issue he was raising is because the cheater was being smart and trying to not break other rules. Something that is a valid complaint but is a non issue because we have policies in place that allow the lead team to ban someone without absolute evidence. The real problem with allowing people to ban "obvious" hackers until the meeting is the fact that my definition of "obvious" might just very well be different then yours. Yes in this case it was pretty damn clear, but the problem is it won't always be the case. That was the problem we had in the past and it resulted in false bans. If the hacker is not breaking other rules then the impact he is having on the server is reduced significantly and is something can be handled in the weekly meetings. If he was using his hacks to blatantly break rules then he will be banned for those rule breaks.

After reading the feedback I think admins should have ban command removed honestly. We are not trusted to make decisions based on evidence. No matter when if we falsely ban we will get shit but suddenly its too big of a risk to ban someone when its (again) obvious that they are hacking.

Like perma banning the whole server is not a risk of any admins but god if they ban someone for 168h for hacking with video proof..

EMP wrote: For some reason I was stuck in a moderator mentality, scrap the mass rdming thing and just think of it as the guy doing this in his T round. I don't know what Savage did but I was just giving an example of where exceptions would be wished to be made by the general majority. The thing that's usually the case is that people are doing a great job and acknowledge it, expect changes to be made to their rank because of it disregarding that it would affect even those who are not really shining examples in given position. I still am no big fan of the banning policies since as brendzor highlighted, if you're smart enough you can get away with it fairly easily. One flaw, for instance, is trusting admins with banning mass rdmers for LTAP and if the victim does not provide valid proof of being wrongly accused, from what I've seen, the appeal would just get denied and the ban would still hold until its expiry.

EMP wrote:
Can you tell me why are you so disgustingly lenient towards hackers? Why are you defending them and giving us obstacles to punish them?

1. We can't handle it, we have to be little babies and ask the LT to come on and handle them
2. APPARENTLY WHAT DODO SHOWED IS NOT PROOF ENOUGH
3. The policy is to KICK and then ban? Are you kidding me?

What's. The. Deal.? Do you WANT hackers? Why are there so many stupid steps and retarded ass backward policies?

If you give us a normal explanation, sure, but this dumb shit is hard to explain rationally.

You give them A TON of unneeded chances to stop hacking.

I've recently banned a person who was hacking - he used aimlock and some sort of spinbot, killed over 10 people and made 8 reports. In each report, he spammed "citizenhack", admitting to his cheats. After I ban him, I get in trouble from a TTT super admin, saying I'm breaking policies.

It was more than obvious he was cheating. He was admitting to cheats. He didn't regret them, because after his slay for "Mass RDM", He said "Fuck, I can't kill all of you anymore because of my karma".

Why do you give them SO MANY CHANCES? They are spinbotting, or aimlocking without hiding it, yet your retarded policies make it so they get loopholes and shortcuts to not being punished.

In most other communities, they would've been long gone, after which, they just move to another server they can terrorise, it doesn't matter to them.

Here, we need to:
1. See that they're hacking, as dodo did.
2. Gather enough evidence to support his claims.
3. Contact a LEAD TEAM MEMBER, which in itself, good luck with that
3.1 - That completely ruins workflow for the attending staff members
4. He has to come on, and check his anti-cheats to gather enough evidence
5. KICK him and sit there and wait until he comes back (most instances end there, after, what, only a minimum of 10 minutes of an aimlocker mass RDMer in the server? And don't try saying "You should punish him for RDM and not hacking" because we need to let him run to gather enough evidence
6. IF he comes back, only then is he banned. That's an IF. Most others just move on to another community after they see the disconnect message.

Why put your own playerbase through this torture to give opportunities to hackers?

Bumping for that reply specifically for higher ups

bump

Svanzscape wrote:
No use even I gave up

LonelyDodo wrote:
Same.

Raeker wrote:
well cant we just create a new user admin group that is an admin but gets anticheat too? not given to all admins still have to apply

Jaxjaxjack wrote: well not yet im here to support you guys

Seargent44 wrote:
I think Nick already suggested something like that.

Svanzscape wrote: Bumping for that reply specifically for higher ups

Svanzscape wrote: One of the arguments I've heard before, which does actually make some sense, is that instantly banning hackers does not mean that they'll stop. The moment you ban a hacker when they've just joined the server and they get permabanned they won't go "Oh, I'll just go to another server then." Instead they'll, or so I hear, use alternate accounts to ban evade. This causes an entirely seperate issue where the people you're banning are not even the actual hackers. Though, maybe, I misunderstood the point - so don't take it from me. However, something I did say on another post as well, this policy was made up by people that have over 10 years of managing Gmod communities. Regardless of how much other people might think they know what to do, it is a fact that we do not have the same experience as the people that have come up with this system.

Raeker wrote:
So, letting them stay for a few rounds and keep hacking is a better alternative? Than banning more than 1 of his accounts?

As for the experience, a number of years tells me nothing when I see a dumb way of dealing with things. Remember, it's not you or them that have to deal with hackers. For you, its my message and then you come and check if he actually cheats. But for me, or other active staff, its countless rounds letting a hacker go and many instances where i see them actually get away with it. People who spend 2 hours a day or more are the ones that suffer. Not the people who sit in TS and just have "owner" as their badge.

Raeker wrote: Thing is that would only happen if for some reason they'd want to target ZARP specifically in which case banning them is not among the worst choices to take. Gmod isn't a free game though it's not expensive either. In most cases of they'd get banned they'd hop onto another server easier to target.

Vakarian wrote:
holy shit this has became a shitfest but They have a point dodo admins should not receive anti cheat as it is fairly easy to get admin which for some people can take around 3 weeks or even 2, then they can just simply abuse it

Svanzscape wrote: Excuse me? Are you telling me that I do not know what it's like to "play" TTT? Because if so, you're horribly mistaken.

Hello everyone

To be honest, it's true that we can feel a bit abandonned in front of some obvious hackers.
I understand your point Dodo, and I think that every staff member in TTT has been wondering at least ONCE how to deal efficiently with hackers.

Funny thing is, for me, in more than 4 months of being LT member, I have only caught one hacker, and I fucked up regarding the policies. An utter failure and disgrace for me.

I will agree that the system is not perfect. However, be aware that we CAN'T have the perfect system and polcies to make the experience on TTT the best, regarding hackers, cheaters and bitches in general.

The reason is simple : we are given, as staff members, some freedom of judgement. Plus, let's be honest. Zarp is very democratic. Staff members are chosen following everyone's vote, anyone can suggest new ideas, and so on.

No one is ever kicked or banned for stupid reasons. And come on, we all know all servers do not work that way !

We have strict but mandatory policies and staff ethos. We ensure that everyone, absolutely EVERYONE spend a good time on our servers.

But this last point, also means that we can't do whatever we like, even when someone is blatantly hacking. We need to vote those kind of things, to be sure that everyone is treated equally. That's how things work here, and I think it is for the best.

I'd rather have this than banning a user because we "think" that he is hacking. Allow this, even for good reasons, and inevitably it will eventually turn wrong and create more problems that it solves.Or having a dictatorian server where I am, as a HA, allowed to ban your ass out of the staff team because of an argument, or just because I don't like you.

That's my opinion. I would love our counter hacking tools to be more effective. But I don't think that TTT is broken. The server is enjoyable and always full.

Have a nice day, everyone.

Chienman wrote:
I agree with most if not all of this, but there is just one flaw in this

Right now admins are allowed to ban if someone Mass RDM's and LTAP's this proof will vanish in 10 rounds and then it will be Admins word against the user

And the small bit of extension in the policy that I was aiming to add is something like this:

When someone is blatantly hacking without any doubt take video evidence of the situation after which you can kick the person for hacking like we would normally proceed. If the user reconnects and continues you can ban him until the next staff meeting where Lead Team will decide the faith of the user. However do mind that false flagging will have consequences on you.

If admins were to follow this there is less room for abuse than in normal ban cases where they are not required to provide any sort of proof

LonelyDodo wrote: Mass RDM can be proven with logs. Hacking cannot be proven with anything serverside except the anticheat, which can only be used if the user is online.

Like I've already stated, there are several users that have supposedly been blatantly hacking that do not use hacks. I recall a particular user last summer called Kana, who was extremely, extremely good. Me and several other LT members suspected them of hacking, but they actually sent me a video of them playing at some point and they did not use any client side modifications that could be considered hacking.

Under this particular rule, Kana would have been banned.

Any staff member that was around at the time will agree with me that that is the worst thing to happen, considering the fact that they became one of the greatest staff members we've had, even managing to get the record of over 1000 reports in a single week.

If we'd allow admins to ban hackers then this will only ruin the server. Trust me, I'm talking from experience.

Raeker wrote:
Challenge accepted!